Scientists Develop New Hydrogen Reactor!

by hawkaw 17 Replies latest jw friends

  • mustang
    mustang

    The alcohol vs. other fuel source argument goes on, doesn't it?

    Hydrogen sounds neat and is an "in thing" to espouse (read that "politically correct").

    But there are couple of arguments that deflate it rapidly:

    1) Converting hydrogen from ethanol is a second step/process: You can burn the ethanol where it stands. A second step to a process always adds expense and complexity; it will also reduce the overall efficiency.

    2) The "containerization" issue: how do you hold it?

    High pressure gas? Volume versus fuel value may mean a VW hauling a bus sized fuel tank. OK, you got the size/bulk down; now the fuel tank only weighs a ton. Maybe this should be a Stationary Power Plant...

    Liquefy it? Oh, neat: CRYOGENICS!!! Ever lug a heavy-ass double-walled cryo cylinder around or get a "burn" from some < -200 degree stuff? Beat on a cryo cooled piece of metal and see if it cracks; that is, DON'T HAVE AN ACCIDENT WITH THIS STUFF ON BOARD!!! And this stuff gives the word "volatile" new meaning. Plug up the vents on that Dewar storage tank: there is more than one way to get an explosion out of this stuff!!!

    Metal Hydrides? Exotic; how do you get the H2 in & how do you get the H2 out? A little bit of heat is involved: that heat has to come from somewhere. That heat might be a problem, especially in mobile installation. Also, generating that heat has to be plowed back into the energy budget...

    Other storage mechanisms? Dunno; somebody always suggests misapplying plastics in engineering discussions...

    Then there are Materials issues. Small molecules: this stuff is the world champion at leaks; it can go through unbelievably small orifices. Just say the word porous and you have a leak. For more fun, ever hear of hydrogen embrittlement?

    3) The ethanol already exists with a higher "fuel value". Why do the extra steps? The extra steps in the process have to be paid for, with somebody's energy budget.

    The "energy budget" economics physicist can make a case against the Fuel Cell approach. They even make a case against straight ethanol. When your back is against the wall, you ignore the criticism that someone else has a luxury. But that was what happened in Brazil.

    This is where Brazil found themselves, years ago: hydrogen wasn't there, Brazil didn't have any significant oil reserves and the import costs were killing them. They did have a large sugar cane industry with a history of sugar, rum and even alcohol production.

    So they let nature take its course: ETHANOL fueled cars. A few years of producing the converted systems and the infrastructure is established. Need "alky" fuel parts? They make millions of them.

    Even in the US conversion parts for ethanol are available. The drag racers have been using them for years. "Off-the-shelf" would be an overnight matter for the auto parts supply industry.

    I say do both: have the Midwest farmers turn out corn, mash and ethanol till they are blue in the face. Pay them for work and corn, not "Soil Bank" subsidies.

    Start with ethanol burning cars. The parts are already in the catalogs and on shelves somewhere; just "ramp up" industry and that is a solved problem.

    Too much alcohol floating around for the ATF's sensibilities? 5$/gallon fuel alcohol becomes 40$/gallon whisky? The heck with them; you need to denature it by their regulations, anyway. A fraction of a dollars worth of gasoline will fix it so I won't drink it and neither will you!!!!

    The 5$ SWAG number I picked out of the air is a problem. But it will come down.

    Subsidize it to get it off the ground. We are already subsidizing farmers to not plant or grow corn!! Shift the subsidy to kick start a new industry; that is one good use of a subsidy.

    Then those fuel cells will kick in and we can see if the competition and research will "even out" the disadvantageous extra steps and other problems.

    American jobs, oil reliance and renewable fuel sources are "weighed in" on the one hand. If properly managed, these pluses could fight against the negative arguments of "existing fuels are cheaper" and the "technical difficulties".

    I'm against this you say? My biggest objection would be the unproven technology, extra process steps and the difference in "fuel value". Those things add up to an economic hurdle for this approach. But something similar to that can be said for any fledgling technology, for that matter.

    I have mixed feelings, but forward motion means taking some chances. Hydrogen or ethanol, either way, we ought to get out there and do it!!!

    Yep, I'm against this: BTW, did I mention that the company I work for handles Fuel Cells? :)

    Mustang

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    You made many good points, Mustang.

    I question the "real price" of our gasoline. What we pay at the pump does not include payoffs to princes, and it does not figure in the military costs, or the costs associated with being the targets of terrorists.

    ADM (Archer Daniels Midland, the argricultural giant) would love it if we transitioned to an ethanol car culture. We might discover new crops that could grow on the tundra that would enable Canada to be energy independant also, and the vast frozen trackless wilderness of Alaska could be used to man's good.

    I'm not sure though - why do you say you're against it? and what is the specific "it" that you're against? Hydrogen? Ethanol? I'm a wee bit confused...

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan

    This is exciting news indeed.

  • mustang
    mustang

    Nathan,

    What I suppose that I am really against, is the "rush to judgement" thinking that this new technology is a "freebie" ticket to the way out. The technical difficulties are nearly nightmar-ish, in some respects. 3 or 4 of those issues could set it back a few decades, blowing away all those easy to come by newspaper hopes. I am conflicted because some of the technical stuff is not being approached soundly: I CANNOT GO INTO DETAILS.

    Again, it is in my interest to see them go; I just walked by another one being set up today.

    Ethanol is proven technology: I can order it and specify it now, with only minor availability issues. We need more of it in this country. As you said, ADM should do this, regardless of the cost. Then, with lots of alcohol around, this other method (ethanol to H2) might come into play.

    Meanwhile, the other types of Fuel Cells will come on line, for one reason or another. Gradually, the bugs will be worked out.

    I don't think they will be any good for mobile power sources for a long time. Very expensive Fuel Cell vehicles have been fielded before. You could always get a FC for your space-shot satellite project, from the 60's on. Look at where the GM EV and such went. That is a good pointer that mobile electric's will have a rocky road.

    Stationary Power Plants are another story. I can tell you those are well on the way. Yep, we are on the way: bugs & all

    Mustang

  • DanTheMan
    DanTheMan

    I think the GM EV was a conspiracy by big oil and GM to put an absolutely god-awful ugly electric car on the road, thereby creating a distasteful association in the mind of American consumers and ensuring a long prosperous future for gasoline powered vehicles.

  • mustang
    mustang

    --- REAL DESIGN CRITIQUE PM'd TO Nathan---

    Also, the Ethanol FC needs the following to just survive (as opposed to the hydrogen FC’s):

    1) The Ethanol FC must have rather high performance to offset the "insertion loss" of the additional steps created,

    2) The ethanol fuel must become not just accepted, but extremely common,

    3) and the ethanol fuel must become competitive in price.

    Failing these, or with bad management, the Ethanol FC could be relegated to the laboratory curiosity stage. Looking at history, the Otto cycle, the Diesel and the steam engine beat the Sterling cycle all to pieces; although after a 100 years the Sterling is actually getting some usage.

    Short answer: I’m less than thrilled at the Ethanol FC’s chances.

    Mustang

  • mustang
    mustang

    Dan,

    The founder of one of the "power electronics" companies I have worked for had to have one of those GM EV's. Then he and his sidekick engineer built an electric "go kart" for pop culture happenings. The GM EV was or is becoming one of those lab curiosities. There are real practical limitations for the mobile electrics, at this time. The Honda, I believe, (and other) response with "hybrids" is a really viable way to go.

    For now, the GM EV is about only good for a historical footnote. After more experience with the hybrids, the pure electric could be revisited.

    After all, the Diesel-electric locomotive is firmly established. If anybody really needs an electric vehicle, GE will be happy to provide you with an Iron Horse.

    And you could always see what "Electric Boat" (does General Dynamics still own them?) could do for you in the way of a "conventional" submarine (also Diesel-electric). I doubt that they would build you a nuclear powered electric!!!

    By the same token, the Hydrogen Fuel Cell is about to go from the "high priced spread" to common usage. If that happens AND ethanol becomes a price competitive AND common fuel, then the Ethanol FC might have a chance.

    Mustang

  • VM44
    VM44

    (edited to remove reference to a certain person)

    --VM44

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit