THE PASSION OF CHRIST

by sandy 33 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Yerusalyim....Yes, you are absolutely right. I wish the film paid more attention to historical accuracy than Christian tradition....but after all, this is just a passion play....

    WillPower....There is absolutely no evidence that the Romans had prisoners carry a pole to their execution. As Yerusalyim said, classical Greek and Latin sources show that Roman executioners forced prisoners to carry the crosspiece. The crosspiece in Latin was called the patibulum, and the practice of making the prisoner bear it existed even before crucifixion came into existence. When the Romans borrowed crucifixion as a method and technology of execution from the Phoenicians during the Punic Wars (who in turn had borrowed it from the Persians), they combined it with their older patibulum-bearing practice to produce the ritual that Jesus was said to have gone through. The person who would bear the cross would stretch out his hands and have the crosspiece either tied across his back or under his chest.

    Dionysius of Halicarnassus (first century B.C.) for instance says that "the men were ordered to lead the slave to his punishment, having stretched out both hands and fastened them to a piece of wood which extended across his breast and shoulders as far as his wrists, followed him, tearing his naked body with whips." Plautus (second century B.C.) described crucifixion as spreading out the hands and nailing them to the patibulum, and twice refers to the ritual of bearing the patibulum before crucifixion: "I shall bear the patibulum through the city; afterwards I shall be nailed to the cross....I bet the hangman will make you look like a human sieve, the way they'll prod you full of holes as they run you down the streets with your arms on a patibulum." Plutarch in his Moralia similarly said: "Every criminal that goes to execution must carry his own cross [stauros] on his back." Since there was no separate word in Greek for patibulum, the word stauros could refer either to the single crossbeam or the entire cross. Note that Plutarch describes the cross as on the criminal's back. John 21:18-19, which predicts Peter's martyrdom, also has Peter stretching out his hands before he is led off to his death. The traditional picture of Jesus carrying the whole cross over one of his shoulders at an angle is not consistent with the historical practice, which involved stretching out the hands and carrying the cross over the back or chest. This was done often because the stipes (vertical pole) was often kept stationary in place, and the criminal bound to the patibulum would then just be lifted up to the stipes after bearing it through the city.

    As far as I know, the earliest artistic depiction of Jesus carrying the cross over his shoulder was in the fifth century, long after crucifixion ended as a form of capital punishment.

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    Leo,

    You're quite well read, I'm impressed. And you're correct, crucifixion was ended as a form of execution in Rome by Constantine in about AD315 or so.

  • Robdar
    Robdar

    I am definitely seeing the movie. It should be very interesting.

    R

  • RR
    RR

    I've seen clips of the movie, it has catholicism written all over it, you know, where the women all look like nuns, the cross is nicely craved. Tradional it is!

    RR

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Thanks for the info about the historical use of the cross for impalements, that's interesting.

    I'm anxious to see the movie just because it sounds like a great movie well done, apparently, historically correct or not.

    But just since some of the details are coming out, if it won't spoil the movie for you, a few more facts to consider (I won't argue the evidence).

    1. NIGHTTIME EXECUTIONS. The executions were not during the day but at night. When Mark references the "third hour" it's the third hour of night. The fact that he doesn't distinguish "the third hour of the day" or "of the night" indicates the historical context did not need this additional information. Keep in mind the Jews day began in the evening or at nightfall. So for instance, if it was a sabbath day, when no executions would take place, after nightfall you could impale the people. Also this was a time, right after supper when likely, with no TV or anything and nobody really working that people would enjoy seeing a nice impalement, naked men being tortured for their crimes. At any rate, Jesus was executed at night, remained on the torture stake all that night clear to the next morning up until Noon when it got dark. His trial was the previous day at noon, per the Bible.

    2. IMPALEMENTS IN THE NUDE: As noted above, the impalements were in the nude, stripping the criminals of any of their dignity. So a loosely covered Jesus is also not historically accurate fo rmodesty's sake, but it does diminish some of the shame of the reality of the situation, it's an extra "cross" to bear to be in front of the world naked during your last hours. Part of the pscyhological embarrassment.

    3. DATE OF EXECUTION 6 DAYS AFTER ARREST: Finally, Jesus ate the customary Passover which is on the evening of Nisan 14th. As Exodus 12 points out, the seven days of unfermented cakes, the first day of which is a sabbath day and the day the Jews left Egypt, begins not on Nisan 15 but on Nisan 14th, in the evening. Bottom line, the Jews technically changed their DATE at Midnight as we do and thus while the meal is eating on Nisan 14th up until midnight, the Jews left Egypt that same night on Nisan 15th. For some reason all the Biblical scholars in the world nor the Jews or even Jehovah's witnesses have understood this. At any rate, Jesus could not have been killed on the Saturday, Nisan 15th, that he was arrested on and so had to have been impaled on the next day of "preparation" which was the 20th of Nisan, a Thursday, the day before the special ("high sabbath") sabbath of the 7th day of unfermented cakes which began that Thursday at sunset. Thus Jesus' trial was "but-preparation" (John 19:14) meaning "yet-preparation" or just before preparation at Noon on Wednesday, Nisan 19th. He was impaled that night at 9 pm. (the "third hour" -- Mark 15:25) and remained there all night until Noon the following day when it got dark for 3 hours until 3 pm when he expired. This began the "three days and three nights" he was in the tomb which was Thursday, Friday and Saturday day and night. He rose Saturday night before 3 am. This is significant so that we might understand why Jesus was so exhausted. This was following six brutal days in prison, probably deprived of sleep along with other anxieties, and by now too weak to carry his own torture stake, THOUGH, with all the focus and being on the middle cross-beam, Pilate coming out to announce he was the "King of the Jews" and all that, his cross-beam might have been exceptional in some way. ??

    Anyway, when you see the execution during the day, with clothes on, the same day as his trial, know that it's no more accurate than any of the other wrong details the Catholics have gotten used to. Still, it's nice this story has been dramatized since it fosters discussion.

    Cheers,

    JC

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    or even Jehovah's witnesses have understood this

    bwaaa, errrr excuse me.

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    Leo - exactly what I meant..... the torture stake idea is just that. Anything to be different.

    Some, like the above, using the "torture stake" phrase while trying to prove or give credit to a totally separate point is a reminder where the underlying scholarship is coming from. Same place as the blood doctrine, as the 144,000, as Beth Sarim, 607 bc, as the.....

    will

  • L_A_Big_Dawg
    L_A_Big_Dawg

    I plan on seeing it.

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    I just bought my tickets. My church men's group is renting the theatre so we can all watch it together. At first I thought this was to boost sales, artificially even. I've been convinced otherwise...My son asked about buying tickets while he was at another theatre on Friday...the first five showings are already sold out.

    JC,

    You're as wrong on some issues as a person can be.

    The executions were not during the day but at night. When Mark references the "third hour" it's the third hour of night. The fact that he doesn't distinguish "the third hour of the day" or "of the night

    Incorrect...the night hours were refered to as WATCHES the Night Watch...not hours.

    Besides, it didn't fit the Roman pattern. The condemned were forced to walk through the streets, carrying the cross beam, with someone walking in front of them (usually) carrying the titular that announced what crime they were being crucified for.

    The Romans wanted as many people to see the humiliating walk through town as possible...therefore, night time was out...this is another reason why the simple upright pole foavored by the JW's is wrong...they wanted no mistakes when people were far away as to what it was they were seeing...and simple upright pole with a man nailed to it can be mistaken for many things...the traditional cross...it stood out. The Romans used this to terrorize the local populace.

    To whomever wrote it, yes, they were crucified naked...sometimes they were crucified facing the cross rather than with their back against it...this was almost always done in the case of women.

    Mel's movie may not be the most historically accurate, but I think it will bring home the savagery that anyone crucified went through. Our crosses, paintings, and movies are too clean...crucifixion is a horrible death.

  • sandy
    sandy

    Did anyone here see the Primetime Special last night? Diane Sawyer interviewd Mel Gibson about his movie.

    http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Primetime/Entertainment/mel_gibson_passion_040216-1.html

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