Where did evil come from?

by laurelin 30 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • patio34
    patio34

    Hi Laurelin and welcome to the board.

    I know your question presupposes a belief in God and the Bible, but I think there is another explanation for the situation. It all depends on what your definition of "evil" is. But I feel it includes killing, stealing, raping, deceiving, violence, and the like.

    My feeling is that evil originated with the very first life forms who lived by "assimilating" (killing and eating) other species in order to stay alive. They have incorporated all the evil actions described above at one time or another.

    The violence in nature, to me it seems, is epitomized in the age of dinosaurs, which lived millions of years and before humans existed.

    For those who feel evolution is a likely explanation for life, then the answer would be that evil has been around from the very beginning of life on the planet. We have simply inherited those biological tendencies.

    Pat

  • laurelin
    laurelin

    Wow!

    Thanks for such a warm welcome!

    You all helped quite a bit. I have to admit that looking at it from a human point of view is probably my problem on a lot of things. "God's ways are not our way's" et al.

    Free will is something that I have always had a problem with but hornetsnest raised some pretty valid points that I had never considered before. Again; quilty of not looking outside the box!

    Thanks so much for everyones help on this...

    Laurelin

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Welcome, Pation is approaching the question from the angle I would. Evil is a term wev'e coined for behavior that we all have at times been tempted to do but society in general discourages. Evolution has no objective, evolution is morally neutral. Behavior patterns and instinct are biologically rooted. Behavior patterns that were more successful in producing offspring than other patterns eventually became dominant. We can understand that happens with animals, don't we? In my part of the world deer have changed from daytime foragers to nocturnal in just about 50 years. The environmental pressure that made this change advantageous seems to be hunting season. It is legal to hunt only during the day and therefore those that were inclined to be night foragers were less likely to be shot. The whole species quickly became more nocturnal as this selection process continued over 30 or so generations. Now if we are honest we can see the same happens among humans. Certain types of behavior produce in better results for that individual. Noone likes to be around a selfish and aggressive person, much less a woman that wants a good father for her offspring. Sothese types of behavior patterns have been largely evolved out of our species which means that those who are truly selfish and aggressive are rarely seen in the population. However before you object there are more envionment pressures at work that simple reproduction succes. In times of exterme hardhip it is often the aggressive and selfish that survive. This means that there are times where in the generally undesired behavior patterns have the advantage. This is why thru the reletively short human history (c.500,000 years) we see both selfish and selfless aspects in a population of people and within individuals. There are many other aspects of evolution that I've not touched such as sexual selection that has shaped the female and male body forms and parenting skills. The fact that humans have been social creatures for a long time has also resulted in selection for qualities that work for the benefit of the whole and not just the individual, his is call group selection of kin selection. Going back to the deer, it is unlikely that deer will ever ecome completely nocturnal in any time soon. Why? because there is another environmental pressure that balances, favoring daytime foraging, CARS. Most deer accidents occur at night because of human's poor night vision. This means that evolution will (and is) produce a species that favors nightime foraging in areas and times with greater hunting pressure but will favor daytime foraging during the times and places where hunting is less a pressure than road hits. In this way deer behavior is shaped like it is in every other animal including us. They are striking a balance that works.

    This is not suggesting that we have to accept antisocial behavior just because it is at least in part genetic. Humans have the right as a society to use pressure to shape the gene pool or at least reduce the exposure of the group to individuals whose behavior is harmful to the group. This is the whole history of life as social creatures. The dog that refuses to hunt with the pack is expelled. Since we are talking about behaviors that have a broad nearly universal consensus of disapproval noone should be conclude that this is ideologically motivated eugenics. It is in reality no different from a parent dispproving of a child's playmate when aggressive behavior is observed. When the whole world as a society is regarded as the protector of the young and the vulnerable, we can see the necessity of isolating aggressive or harmful individuals from the group.

    I know I've been rambling, but this is a very real issue we all face as members of society. Dismissing our responsibilty to assist in this collective effort to make safe our planet is the worst antisocial behavior. This often results from believing primative myths about talking snakes and awaiting the spirit world to fix all our social ills.

  • Sargon
    Sargon

    Welcome Laurelin,

    I think to truly understand where evil comes from one must ignore the mythology laid out in Genesis. This book was written at a time when man's knowledge was not very advanced. just a cursory study of this book will reveal what a crock of BS it really is.

    Brummie may look like a cute cat, but I think he's right about evil coming from the hearts of men. I don't think we need some mystical explanation of a human phenomenon.

    We sort of touched on this subject on another thread:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/66196/1.ashx

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    "Evil" is not an entity or force. It is simply the perception of things happening that makes one unhappy.

    Basically, "evil" is what one experiences when one does not get one's way. It is a selfish concept or a concept of self preservation.

    For instance... salt is not considered evil by a humans, however snails would classify it as a weapon of mass destruction. Bathing is not considered evil by a humans, however cats would have such a thing outlawed.

    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So is Evil.

  • Valis
    Valis

    Men never do evil so fully and so happily as when they do it for conscience's sake.-

    Pascal

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    There are many other examples from the OT of the same thing Narkissos was talking about. In Exodus, we repeatedly read how "Yahweh made Pharaoh's heart stubborn" (cf. Exodus 9:35; 10:20, 27), so that Yahweh had a hand in Pharaoh's defiance. In Judges 9:23, we read how "God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the citizens of Shechem, who acted treacherously against Abimelech." Similarly, we repeatedly read how Yahweh sent an evil spirit to demonize and possess Saul:

    "Now the spirit of Yahweh had left Saul and an evil spirit from Yahweh tormented him. Saul's servants said to him, 'Look, an evil spirit of God is the cause of your terror. Let our lord give the order, and your servants who wait on you will look for a skilled harpist; when the evil spirit of God troubles you, the harpist will play and you will recover.' Saul said to his servants, 'Find me a man who plays well and bring him to me.' ... And when ever the spirit from God troubled Saul, David took the harp and played; then Saul grew calm, and recovered, and the evil spirit left him." (1 Samuel 16:14-23)
    "On the following day an evil spirit from God seized Saul and he fell in a fit of frenzy while he was in his house. David was playing the harp as on other days and Saul had his spear in his hand. Saul brandished the spear, 'I am going to pin David to the wall,' he said. But David twice evaded him." (1 Samuel 18:10-11)
    "An evil spirit from Yahweh came on Saul while he was sitting in his house with his spear in his hand; David was playing the harp. Saul tried to pin David to the wall with his spear, but he avoided Saul's thrust and the spear stuck to the wall.... Saul accordingly sent agents to capture Daivd; when they saw the company of prophets prophesying, and Samuel there as their leader, the spirit of God came on Saul's agents, and they too fell into an ecstacy." (1 Samuel 19:9-10, 20)

    A further example can be found in the story of Micaiah in 1 Kings:

    "Yahweh was seated on his throne and all the array of heaven stood in his presence, on his right and on his left. Yahweh said, 'Who will trick Ahab into marching to his death at Ramoth-gilead?' At which some answered one way, and some another. Then a spirit came forward and stood before Yahweh, 'I will trick him,' he said. 'How?' Yahweh asked. He replied, 'I will go and become a lying spirit in the mouths of his prophets.' 'You shall lie and trick him,' Yahweh said, 'you shall succeed. Go and do it.' Now see how Yahweh put a deceitful spirit into the mouths of all your prophets here. But Yahweh has pronounced disaster on you." (1 Kings 22:19-23)

    Of course, in the NT, Satan or the Devil is the one who is ruler of the demons (i.e. as Beelzebub), who sends evil spirits forth to demonize people, and who is the "father of the lie" and who lies behind false prophets and antichrists (cf. 1 John and Revelation). But in the OT, Yahweh is the one who sends forth evil spirits and false prophecy.

  • drawcad_1
    drawcad_1

    Laurelin: you have a very thought provoking question. Do not get into to much detail during a study, the conductor might just ignore you and say ?that the answer will come when you have more faith?. Wasn?t I told that enough.

    Leolaia: those are some very good quotes. I will definitely use them the nest time that I go in-depth with an elder.

    Let me try to recap the position that the WT has on this point. Which all witnesses may not share, but is what I was told during my time ?in?. God created everything perfect, but gave everyone the option to do bad things. He created perfect humans that became imperfect after the fruit was eaten. He created perfect angels and one of them, Lucifer, decided to be bad and became evil. This goes against, in my opinion, the idea that God created everything. If he did then he would have also created evil, but that would go against a loving God. The whole story of Eden, yes I realize that it is mythology, is just another test that god put the humans through. He is basically the only bad person in the whole story. I had never thought about the tree of good and bad, and cannot wait to use it during my next in-depth discussion.

  • Sirona
    Sirona

    Elsewhere

    For instance... salt is not considered evil by a humans, however snails would classify it as a weapon of mass destruction.

    LOL I like it. That must be where we all went wrong in Iraq.

    I agree that evil is not quantifyable and is in the eye of the beholder.

    Sirona

  • Love_Truth
    Love_Truth

    Hornetsnest,

    I agree with you completely. Good post. Those who ignore God's word do so at their own risk, as I have made clear numerous times here. Laughing and mocking are to be expected, they did the same to Noah, Moses, and God's own son.

    Matthew 5:3-14:

    "God blesses those who realize their need for him, [1]
    for the Kingdom of Heaven is given to them.
    4
    God blesses those who mourn,
    for they will be comforted.
    5
    God blesses those who are gentle and lowly,
    for the whole earth will belong to them.
    6
    God blesses those who are hungry and thirsty for justice,
    for they will receive it in full.
    7
    God blesses those who are merciful,
    for they will be shown mercy.
    8
    God blesses those whose hearts are pure,
    for they will see God.
    9
    God blesses those who work for peace,
    for they will be called the children of God.
    10
    God blesses those who are persecuted because they live for God,
    for the Kingdom of Heaven is theirs.
    11 "God blesses you when you are mocked and persecuted and lied about because you are my followers. 12 Be happy about it! Be very glad! For a great reward awaits you in heaven. And remember, the ancient prophets were persecuted, too.

    13 "You are the salt of the earth. But what good is salt if it has lost its flavor? Can you make it useful again? It will be thrown out and trampled underfoot as worthless. 14 You are the light of the world--like a city on a mountain, glowing in the night for all to see. 15 Don't hide your light under a basket! Instead, put it on a stand and let it shine for all. 16 In the same way, let your good deeds shine out for all to see, so that everyone will praise your heavenly Father."

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