Was Jesus Christs' physical body disposed of?

by hooberus 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    Conclusion: The scriptures teach the resurrection of the body of Jesus Christ, not that his body was "disposed of" as the Watchtower falsely teaches.

    Hooberus,

    Not only was the literal body of Jesus that was executed resurrected from the dead, this body was resurrected personally by Jesus Himself just as He stated. And this human body will be used in the Kingdom so it will be on earth for an extended period of time

    This is not to say that Jesus raised Himself from death. God raised Jesus from death but as the Word that was the non-human creator of mankind. In this state the non-human Word could raise His own body and become the only Being with dual natures. I call this the Hypostasis nature of Christ but use the generic meaning of the term not the trinitarian one. This is also why Jesus could afterward be referred to either way in scrupture using His human or His non Human nature as in the apostle Paul episode.

    Joseph

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Hooberus: I won't discuss here the original meaning of the so-called "great apocalypse of Isaiah" (chapters 24--27), the original perspective of which is quite different from Christian teaching -- even if Christian writers later used some of it.

    As for Pauline teaching, you write:

    Paul also taught that the Christians' "mortal bodies" would be quickened (made alive). When the Christains mortal bodies are made immortal by resurrection then as Isaiah said (Paul even quoted Isaiah) death would be swallowed up in victory.

    "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." Romans 8:11

    "So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Corinthians 15:54

    The above phrase "this mortal" clearly referrs to this mortal body. Paul in Romans 8:11 and 1 Corinthians 15:54 is talking about mortal bodies being made alive (not discarded, and not remaining in the grave). Paul taught the resurrection of the body. Paul hoped for the redemption of his body, not his body being discarded forever, but it (his body) being redeemed or transformed (Phil. 3:21).

    "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Romans 8:23

    It is very interesting that all the texts you quote do not refer to resurrection from the dead, but to the ultimate fate of the believers living to see Christ's parousia (Paul expecting to be one of them). This category is singled out from 1 Thessalonians 4:15 on: we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord. It is also in view in 1 Corinthians 15:50ff:

    What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

    So "this perishable body" is not the body of the dead (this body is not "what is raised", as the previous seed analogy clearly states, v. 37), but the body of the living which has to be "changed" in order to match the imperishable and immortal quality of the body "given" (v. 38) the resurrected. Approximately the same idea recurs in 2 Corinthians 5:4:

    For while we are still in this tent, we groan under our burden, because we wish not to be unclothed (i.e., by death) but to be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

    In Romans 8:11 resurrection from the dead is just not at stake. Paul is writing to living believers and does not anticipate their death. Remember, the Lord comes soon, and "salvation is nearer to us now than when we became believers" (13:11)... However the eschatological scenario becomes less detailed as time goes by.

    Remember: I just speak of the Pauline view. The (later) Gospels' "empty tomb" stories, on the other hand, clearly imply some sort of "resurrection of the body". Yet it has to be something more than "ressuscitation of a corpse", if Jesus' resurrection is to be any different from, say, Lazarus' or the widow's son...

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    As to the Pauline concept of spiritual resurrection (egeirĂ´ = awakening), I think 1 Corinthians 15:35ff is appropriate for the present discussion:

    Since we both agree that 1 Corinthians 15:35 -47 is dealing with Pauls' concept of the resurrection of the dead, I will write about it here. I believe that it is refering to a bodily resurrection (as the rest of the scriptures teach).

    "But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" Fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies."

    Paul does not stop at the end of the phrase "What you sow does not come to life" (and thus deny that the dead body will live again), but instead he goes on to add the qualifying phrase "unless it dies." This indicates that if "it dies" that later what is sown can "come to life"

    "And as for what you sow, you do not sow the body that is to be, but a bare seed, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain."

    A farmer does not sow a mature wheat plant (what bare seed eventually is to become), but wheat seed. However there is a continuity, the same wheat seed that is sown (after it seems to die in the ground) "comes to life" as a wheat plant. In the same way the glorified resurrected body (the body that "is to be")is not what is sown, but the corruptible body is. However just as the seed that is sown, comes to life and becomes a mature plant, so does the dead body. It comes to life and becomes glorified in the resurrection.

    "But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body."

    A wheat seed when it comes to life has the body of a wheat plant, just as each kind of seed has its own body (ie: a sunflower seed becomes a sunflower plant). There is continuity between the seed and the completed body it is given.

    "So it is with the resurrection of the dead. . . It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory."

    The "it" that is sown is the "it" that is raised. What is sown is the body, thus the "it" that is raised must be the body.

    "It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.

    The "it" that is sown is the "it" that is raised.

    "It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body."

    The translation "physical" is not used by by most versions (the KJV uses the word "natural"). This same word is used by Paul in Chapter 2 of the same book (1 Corinthians). Which word "physical" or "natural" seems to fit the context of verse 2:14 ? The word "natural" seems to fit the context of verse 2:14 much better than the word "physical."

    "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man." 1 Corinthians 2:13-15

    "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." KJV

    Paul says that it is raised "a spiritual body." He does not write that it is raised "a spirit body."

    Paul earlier in the same book contrasts "the natural man" with he that is "spiritual." The greek words translated "natural" and "spiritual" in Chapter 2 are the same greek words in Chapter 15.

    "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man." 1 Corinthians Chapter 2:13-15

    The word "spiritual" in Chapter 2 does not seem to mean "spirit" (as in spirit creature), but instead seems to mean one led by and empowered by the spirit of God.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    As Hooberus just linked to this thread from http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/105242/2.ashx I realise that I didn't reply to his last post here so I'll... resurrect it.

    The "it" that is sown is the "it" that is raised. What is sown is the body, thus the "it" that is raised must be the body.

    As far as 1 Corinthians 15 is concerned, I disagree. The "it" which is both sown in death and raised in resurrection, and wherein the continuity consists, is not the body. Call "it" as you like, "person," "subject," "I," "soul," "spirit" (albeit Paul would probably reserve psukhè for what is before death, cf. the use of psukhikos, "psychical," often rendered as "natural" or "physical" as you pointed out, and pneuma for what comes after), it is not the body. It had a body prior to death and it will have another body, "given" by God (v. 38), at resurrection. In the meantime "it" is described as naked, i.e. bodyless. Although this is lost in the translation you use, the same adjective gumnos ("naked") which qualifies the "bare seed" in 1 Corinthians recurs in a similar context in 2 Corinthians 5:

    For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling-- if indeed, when we have taken it off we will not be found naked (gumnoi). For while we are still in this tent, we groan under our burden, because we wish not to be unclothed but to be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

    Note that here the "we" (corresponding to the "it" which is both sown and raised in 1 Corinthians 15) is described as dwelling, either in an earthly tent (the present body) or the eternal/heavenly building/dwelling (the resurrection body). And the last part about being "further clothed" refers to those who would not have to die, i.e. go through the "naked state," because they would be found living at the Lord's parousia (same perspective in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15:51ff). It is, in effect, the exception that confirms the rule (those who die lose their earthly body and are given another at resurrection, those who are found alive at the parousia won't experience the loss of their earthly body but have it changed into, or "further clothed by," the spiritual body).

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien
    Conclusion: The scriptures teach the resurrection of the body of Jesus Christ, not that his body was "disposed of" as the Watchtower falsely teaches.

    Thanks for the sermon brother hoob.

    TS

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