by Sirona 60 Replies latest watchtower bible
Mr Ben
Thanks for recommending that book. I have already read it and I agree its quite good. I don't think all of the assertions are quite true, but it does give a good overview of the origins of some Christian beliefs.
I'd recommend that Christians read it
First in line - I'll look up those scriptures. Believe it or not, I still keep a few bibles, one of which is about 160 years old (printed 1847).
Sirona
I don't claim to really be a true Christain believer, or an unbeilver either. So I am stuck, in a state of ambivalence.
On one hand, even thou I don't beleive the JW way anymore, there is still a tiny, tiny , spark about Jesus in my heart. I still feel something there, and I am drawn to Him , even thou I do nothing about it. Maybe I do some of the actions He told us to do, do good to others etc. But I can't pray anymore.When I try I feel stupid, like I am talking to myself, no one is there. I so truly want to be a believer again, but I don't know how,,,,,,,reading the Bible is a road block for me.
Maybe I just am not ready, maybe I am not sincere enough in my heart to have Jesus give me that feeling so many others say they have had. I dunno.
On the other hand, there are so many scientific things that seem to clash with the bible's accounts and therefore, I don't trust the Bible anymore.
If I can't trust the bible anymore,,,,,,,how am I going to put faith in the Lord,,,,,,,,maybe there wasnt one? Maybe it was all made up and exacterrated....... I mean maybe the Jesus who walked the earth was just a good man, not from heaven..... I dunno.
I have thought of going to a church, just a non denomination one, and see if I catch the spirit or something. I just don't think I am ready yet, and basically would not have a good attitude, or die from a panic attack for having to put panty hose and a dress on again........I dunno.
Lyin,
On one hand, even thou I don't beleive the JW way anymore, there is still a tiny, tiny , spark about Jesus in my heart. I still feel something there, and I am drawn to Him , even thou I do nothing about it.
Christians say that you should pray, sincerely, and ask Jesus to come into your heart and your life. They say this is how you are "born again". Why don't you try that? I've heard of some people having some cool experiences where Jesus literally opens their heart up.
I've discussed the bible with a born again christian and he seems to think that the bible itself isn't perfect and just gives us guidelines. If you can live with that then maybe being a Christian doesn't mean you have to believe the bible 100%.
Sirona
I've just seen this thread (I was away on a road trip), so here's my 2p.
Disect it all you like, but I feel no desire to respond. I'm merely stating my humble opinion.
There are so many unknowns, but the following is what I currently hold to, in my ever evolving understanding of my relationship to the cosmos:
The above touches my Christian beliefs, which is perhaps a core, but not the totality of who I am or what I believe. Further, that which I put in parenthesis would need defining.
I would echo Love_Truth's comments about reading comprehension...
Touching the additional questions:
Do you believe that God will destroy non-christians in a battle of armageddon? If not, what is armageddon according to the bible?
John appears to interpret what he saw as some kind of liberation of those that Christ loved.
Do you believe that we continue after death? If so, where do we "go"? and do our actions in life determine where we go?
"Heaven", whatever that is. It's a mental placeholder that could mean another dimension or goodness knows what. But just as energy transforms from one type to another so, I believe, do we.
Do we have salvation by faith or by works? Or both? Or none?
"Faith". But you'd need to know what I mean by that - I tried drawing it out in a thread recently.
IMHO it's tangible ("believers" likely know what I mean by this), and it the evidence that supports our hope.
Unfortunately it's so personal you can't put it in a box and take it to "show and tell".
Is God separate from us? Or within us? Both?
He's omnipresent, hence both.
All merely my opinion, and hence I hope it is accepted as such.
I try my darndest not to hurt anyone, and to make the "life-journey" for all pleasant.
Meanwhile I try to suck the marrow out of life whilst trying to comprehend that,which I experience with all of my six senses
FirstInLine:
Deary me, you aren't too clear on what you're talking about...
You said;
In addition keep in mind that if there is a God(s), and I believe there is: he/they either cannot do anything to help us and therefore probably did not create us.
(highlight mine)
I said I'd think of that as an alien, and you replied;
No, I did not say he/they did not create the universe.
(highlight mine)
Look, I don't mind you not knowing what you're saying, but could you have the common courtesy to not make out such confusion to be my error?
I also don't see what use comments like this are;
why are you on the computer and not spending all your time and money in your selfless fight to end human suffering?
I was talking about the character of god someone raised in a Christian culture grows up with; if you don't understand, ask questions, I'm more than happy to help... but you can stick your passive-aggresive ad homs right where the sun don't shine.
Oh, yeah, first in line for what? Isn't that a little vain?
lets hear your resume
Now this is in er, 'answer' to me speculating that a parent who could save their child from death but did not would be thought of as a monster...
Now if we insert an apostrophe into your sentence so it's at least grammatical (let's), it still doesn't make sense...
You said;
if God did have a religion
When I asked why and whether this would entail a series of gods worshipping each other, your answer isn't an answer;
Is that what I postulated?
You then start to lie rather than just using the subtle (joke) and decepetive (well, YOU think you're clever) reasoning which characterises you thus far;
No. Reasoning wont satisfy you. Evidence wont satisfy you. You want proof and according to your guidelines at that.
You make a claim that something is logical, and refuse to give your reasoning. Seems, just like your beliefs, we have to take your word for it...
As for 'evidence won't satisfy you', WHAT evidence? YOU accept proof according to YOUR guidelines and accuse me of doing the same in reverse... very weird... and as my paradigm is an evidentary one (and yours isn't), you're also making a fallacious argument (no, that's got nothing to do with oral sex).
You get progressively more pathetic as your post continues;
Natuarlly some one as logical as me would realise the possibility of it all being made up.
Some one? Surely if you have some of something the something you have is plural so you would have 'some ones', unless you were asking a question, like if you were offering one to someone, which is what you meant, logic boy...
And how have you excluded that possibility big boy?
You only want to consider the possibilities that make you happy though.
Happy? There being a god who would communicate his divine plan to man would make me happy. There's just not evidence to support this belief. So, that's another lie about me by you... and you're Christian?
Oh, nice try with the Higgs Field by the way, where did you get it from? No cigar though; the Higgs Boson will be testable when we have the equipment to do experiments at 200GeV. So, given the right equipment, which will come (I think they're up to 115GeV), my point stands down to a theoretical level. In terms of gravity's appearance in the realm of our senses, that makes total sense and is testable with stopwatch... which is the point I was making.
Look Firsty, I am not saying I have THE answers, I'm trying to get you to explain your bland assurances. This is a discussion board; look it up. You say something, people react to it. If you want a statement board, well, start a weblog and don't allow people to make responses to your posts.
Notice I accept that possiblity while when I pose similar ones you deride me?
I ask questions about what you say which you refuse to elaborate on.
My second one was in response to you being rude.
You called me a jerk on another thread. Obviously it's okay for you to be rude but not for other people.
This thread has recorded who started it. You are being a TROLL.
Errr... before I ever directed a word to you you were insulting me. Those are the facts.
Little Toe:
Interesting (partial) explanation of your beliefs. Would you allow yourself to be described as a Hindu or a Buhddist too? I am honestly not taking the piss asking that, it's just your conceptions would be compatable with the liberal end of those beliefs as well as with liberal 21st Century Christianity, differing only from your cultural starting point and reference books.
If it IS about worshiping 'god' in spirit (which I think is something many believers will agree on), then differentiating between beliefs with the same basic end philosophy just serves to obstruct understanding and brotherhood that should come as a result of the desire to worship god in spirit.
Just as a Christian's approach to god can be obstructed by doctinal bull, surely a theist's approch to 'god' can similarly by obstucted by meaningless differentiations?
Love_Truth
What I do not understand is this; If not conforming your life to these viewpoints (or beliefs) results in a negative outcome (i.e. if someone not living his life as a Christian results in a disadvantage, perhaps even destruction), then how is it fair if these viewpoints are unprovable and regional in their expression?Good question. As I stated in reply to Sirona, (above), w hile only God can judge who is saved, the probability of our salvation increases as we learn and practice His teachings. If we deliberately live a sinful lifestyle, our chances of salvation are less than if we do our best to avoid sin and live an approved lifestyle. If we are ignorant of Christian teachings, it is for God to judge why. Was it because we were not exposed to the Bible? Did a ?Christian? do something to us so offensive that we never looked any further at the teachings of Christ? Did we ignore the Bible?s teachings, even though we were taught them? Was it our own selfish desire for something sinful that kept us from doing so? Millions of questions like these would have to be answered, and only one can do so. Only God, not man, can judge
But what's the POINT in sending your son to die, or dying yourself, or whatever, and NOT doing so in a manner which assures a high level of message delivery? JUst saying 'oh, god will answer that' is evading the issue, as IF it was 'made-up', the same answer would be given to that question.
It's like saying god will punish those who don't guess right and who are born in the wrong place - as I'm sure many people are Christians through accident of birth and would have ended up as a Muslim or a Hindu if born elsewhere.Exactly. Again, I believe it comes down to why we aren?t following Christ. God will ultimately judge. If we casually brush off Christ?s teachings, after we have been exposed to them, we are putting ourselves in a potentially precarious position. If we are ignorant of them for other reasons, it is very hard top conclude that such ones would be judged negatively based on that alone. God will judge them, not man.
Again, not a real answer. Book of the MonthClub can contact us easy; why not god? Why not send Jesus now with CNN available to cover it so the entire world knows. Your just answering the inexplicable with a shrug and 'god knows'. Good enough for you maybe, but as it's similar to what the WTBS does, I am suspicisous and do not think it seems likely, nor could it seem likely without a presuppostion on yuor part.
As you argue the viewpoints are not provable, citing that place of birth can't be considered unfair as people now have the opportunity to hear the Gospel worldwide doesn't workAs we?ve discussed previously, no viewpoints are irrefutably provable, period. I never said place of birth can?t be considered ?unfair? There are lots of aspects to life that are ?unfair?, and it is ultimately up to God to judge each of us individually, based on how we lived our lives, and how much we strived to please God.
Again, you're answers are the same as countless religionists over the centuries, and not just Christian ones...
Sorry Love_Truth, you're happy with your rationalisations to the above... I find them indistinguisable from OTHER people who say they are right. And we are meant to judge a tree by its fruits, are we not? How come it is not OBVIOUS you are right? It doesn't say 'the trees will bear similar fruits and you'll just have to hope you choose the right one'?
Abaddon,
Quit asking questions, jerk!!!
Signed,
Jerk number 2
Abaddon,
Deary me, you aren't too clear on what you're talking about...
Yes I am. Its obvious what I am talking about.
I said I'd think of that as an alien, and you replied;
I replied appropriately and successfully preserved my position against the critique you gave.
Look, I don't mind you not knowing what you're saying,
I will keep that in mind if I ever dont know what I am saying.
but could you have the common courtesy to not make out such confusion to be my error?
If you are confused and its your fault its your fault. Please take some personal responsibility when you fail.
I also don't see what use comments like this are;
why are you on the computer and not spending all your time and money in your selfless fight to end human suffering?
Questions like that have the potential expose hypocritical attacks against God. What comment were you reffering to?
if you don't understand, ask questions, I'm more than happy to help...
I did and it doesnt seem that you are.
but you can stick your passive-aggresive ad homs right where the sun don't shine.
xoxoxo
Oh, yeah, first in line for what? Isn't that a little vain?
First in line for "A new way." No, its a little tribute.
Now this is in er, 'answer' to me speculating that a parent who could save their child from death but did not would be thought of as a monster...
Now if we insert an apostrophe into your sentence so it's at least grammatical (let's), it still doesn't make sense...
A resume (pronounced rez-uh-meh) is something in which your qualifications and experience are listed. Sorry if I am making it sound as though it is your fault for not understanding but it is. Please take some personal responsibility.
When I asked why and whether this would entail a series of gods worshipping each other, your answer isn't an answer;
An answer that is not an answer is certainly not an answer. But it was a bit of a rhetorical question which was in response to your rhetorical question so there ya go.
You then start to lie
No I dont, you do. You are the liar whose pants are on fire.
You make a claim that something is logical, and refuse to give your reasoning. Seems, just like your beliefs, we have to take your word for it...
You arent required to do anything. Stop acting like such a victim.
As for 'evidence won't satisfy you', WHAT evidence? YOU accept proof according to YOUR guidelines and accuse me of doing the same in reverse... very weird... and as my paradigm is an evidentary one (and yours isn't), you're also making a fallacious argument (no, that's got nothing to do with oral sex).
You get progressively more pathetic as your post continues;
You have already demonstrated who is pathetic and have yet to prove otherwise:
Hahaha. Yeah... make out it's MY fault, of course... how weak...
You are not concerned with understanding conlicting viewpoints. You wish to shut down opposing viewpoints.
Some one? Surely if you have some of something the something you have is plural so you would have 'some ones', unless you were asking a question, like if you were offering one to someone, which is what you meant, logic boy...
Moor bate ment to insite en eemoshunel response. You never give up, do you trolly?
And how have you excluded that possibility big boy?
When did I say I excluded it? (uh oh my answer was not an answer, Im going to get it now)
You only want to consider the possibilities that make you happy though.Happy? There being a god who would communicate his divine plan to man would make me happy. There's just not evidence to support this belief.
Oh so you dont want to consider possibilites that do make you happy either. Ok.
So, that's another lie about me by you.
What lie?
... and you're Christian?
Bait sniffed and observed.
Oh, nice try with the Higgs Field by the way, where did you get it from?
What did I try?The Higgs Field is everywhere.
No cigar though
I dont want your exploding gag cigars anyway.
the Higgs Boson will be testable when we have the equipment to do experiments at 200GeV.
Ok but you do realise what a departure that is from using the analogy of gravity. Your argument lost its merit.
my point stands down to a theoretical level.
But that is the point. Its now on the theoretical level.
In terms of gravity's appearance in the realm of our senses, that makes total sense and is testable with stopwatch... which is the point I was making.
And I demonstated that there are things that cannot be tested and observed yet are logical to believe in. So I showed you that having an open mind is important in finding such elusive elements of reality.
Look Firsty, I am not saying I have THE answers, I'm trying to get you to explain your bland assurances.
You did not do that very well.
This is a discussion board; look it up. You say something, people react to it. If you want a statement board, well, start a weblog and don't allow people to make responses to your posts.
More bait.
I ask questions about what you say which you refuse to elaborate on.
No. I refuse to be baited by people that obviously dont want to have a real discussion and consider possibilities. You can start over anytime but you have yet to try. You are just digging yourself deeper.
Do you think I may have something to offer or are you intending to just slam what I say? Do you see how that might be an important prerequisite to such a discussion? You are interested in playing games and that is why you are still on this thread. To you it is a competition.
You called me a jerk on another thread. Obviously it's okay for you to be rude but not for other people.
On that thread you were being a jerk. What is it you want?
Errr... before I ever directed a word to you you were insulting me. Those are the facts.
I said you were being a jerk on another thread. You were being a jerk. If you were not being a jerk then I apologize but if you were take your medicine and get better.
Abaddon:
Would you allow yourself to be described as a Hindu or a Buhddist too?
No, because whilst I appreciate the wisdom of Buddah, I don't worship him. In the case of other religious entities, they may well be just other names for the same thing (I'm happy to concede that a "creator" God is common to many belief sets, hence why I'm not as dogmatic about "salvation" as Jerk2 would like me to be ), but I've settled for the name Yahshuah. Besides, my practice would appear to be far nearer that of JamesThomas than that of most religionists.
I am honestly not taking the piss asking that...
Yes you are, admit it
If it IS about worshiping 'god' in spirit (which I think is something many believers will agree on), then differentiating between beliefs with the same basic end philosophy just serves to obstruct understanding and brotherhood that should come as a result of the desire to worship god in spirit.
Agreed. I suspect that "God" is grieved by such a state of affairs.
Just as a Christian's approach to god can be obstructed by doctinal bull, surely a theist's approch to 'god' can similarly by obstucted by meaningless differentiations?
Further agreement, here. So much is in the symantics.
Firsty
I really don't think this is a competition... I fully admit I think this is (given a good person to debate with) fun. Some people like NFL, I like discussions.
However, you're not 'fun'.
You consistantly make an assertion, say it is logical, and then refuse to defend it.
You make sweeping statements about the level of verifiability of something but never back it up with facts.
When you do argue something in detail, it is frequently contradictory. In your attempt to defend your point about the Higgs Field you manage to simultaneously manintain two points of view - a charming display of cognitive dissonance that you're utterly unaware of.
You might think I want to shut-down conflicting viewpoints; wrong. Life would be very boring without differing viewpoints. What you seem to have a problem with is having your reasoning questioned, or having your reasoning asked for when you assure everyone that it's logical.
In that you are unfortunately quite representative of your paradigm of choice. It controls your actions and inactions; your description "hypocritical attacks against God" shows that despite your big words, it is you who "obviously dont want to have a real discussion and consider possibilities", as you've already determined the 'facts'.
You can't even explain why you started insulting me on another thread, you just re-state the insult;
"I said you were being a jerk on another thread. You were being a jerk.:
Which exemplifies your entire approach Firsty...
I suppose you can lead a presuppositionalist to water, but you can't make it think.
Little Toe
No, because whilst I appreciate the wisdom of Buddah, I don't worship him.
Most Buhddists would agree with you on that, so, that doesn't mean you're not a Buhddist. You're just not enlightend to the fact...
Hell, apparently in the traditonal range of Hindu beliefs I can be described as a Hindu so you certainly can; they really don't mind you not agreeing (how's that for inclusive?).
In the case of other religious entities, they may well be just other names for the same thing (I'm happy to concede that a "creator" God is common to many belief sets, hence why I'm not as dogmatic about "salvation" as Jerk2 would like me to be ), but I've settled for the name Yahshuah. Besides, my practice would appear to be far nearer that of JamesThomas than that of most religionists.
Ah, but what if taking up a name which is essentially random (depending on your place of birth it could have been Ahura-Mazda, Vishnu, or a collective identity such as your ancestors) is a CAUSE of divisions? Not through ill intent on your part but because the act of attempting to divide or compartmentalise the divine is in itself a harmful action?
Agreed. I suspect that "God" is grieved by such a state of affairs.
Yeah, this is a bit of a crunch point for me; god, if he is anything like most concepts of god, is responsible. The buck stops there. So, if he is grieved, wither the action to resove the situation? Do you REALLY believe the spreading of god's spirit and truth was better achieved through in the 1st C than it could be achieved today? The lack of logical plan or perceptable progress towards remedy of ills speaks to me of god being far more diffuse, if indeed there is such an identifiable personified entity.
All the best
Abaddon:
All the best
Does that mean you don't want to discuss it further, or just that you're wishing me well?
Either way, all the best to you, too
