The God of Christians is Very Vague

by frankiespeakin 23 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • donkey
    donkey

    Little Toe,

    Have you considered that all man's attempts to describe "God" have failed miserably?

    How do we find out about God then - all we have as beginners are the Bible and the followers who teach it? Who described God to you? Wasn't it a human or based on what humans have written?

    Further, if "God" were to use men, where would he find some that weren't prone to dishonesty, etc, etc?
    Might I ask what issues you have with "Christ" (since that is the real crux of "Christianity", not the beliefs and behaviours of those who claim to follow him)?

    If we should not listen to Christians, and if we should not look at their beliefs or read what was written by men then where should we turn?

    Does God speak with you directly? Do you have visions sent from him?

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Donkey:

    How do we find out about God then - all we have as beginners are the Bible and the followers who teach it? Who described God to you? Wasn't it a human or based on what humans have written?

    Now see, that's where so many detractors go wrong. Belief is more often than not experiential. Read all the books you like, and listen to all the people you want, but until you make a personal connection to the divine you'll never know. Further, you'll continue to believe that the divine does not exist.

    I offer as an example of this that you don't have a clue who I am, for all of my posts that you may have read.
    Meet me, connect, and continue some kind of meaningful relationship, and you will have made a beginning.
    Even yet, you will only have a glimpse of who I am.

    Your curiosity may be piqued, by what you read, and hear from those who have met me, but until you actually do so yourself...

    Does God speak with you directly? Do you have visions sent from him?

    That would be for me to know, and you to find out.

  • donkey
    donkey
    Read all the books you like, and listen to all the people you want, but until you make a personal connection to the divine you'll never know. Further, you'll continue to believe that the divine does not exist.

    LT,

    So then if it is as you say it is there is no hope for me unless God contacts me. I cannot contact that which I do not know.

  • MorpheuzX
    MorpheuzX

    This would be a lot easier if god would get a 1-800 number, preferably toll free. God's omniscient and omnipotent, right? So how hard could it be?

  • gumby
    gumby
    Belief systems, religions and scripture can be seen as feeble attempts at grasping or capturing what our hearts yearn for

    Well put James...I agree. As even the dubs have pointed out ........tribes of people who have NEVER seen other humans and have had no outside contact or influence........look to something beyond them that is greater, wiser, and caring. Just WHERE this compulsion comes from....I don't know. I hope THERE IS a god who loves us.......but the suffering in the world always puts that fire out for me. I wish I knew.

    And as for you LT......I still think your a bastard!

    Gumby

  • Will Power
    Will Power

    I think the minute you put god on the outside it is turned into a thing which needs explaining, describing, molding, comparing, etc. and all this is done with an extremely inadaquate human mind.

    All the tools man uses in all cultures to describe & relate to or be controlled by - the god - seem to be just that "tools", for the spiritually immature.

    I do not believe god or the concept and experience is an "outer" tangible, confined, limited, thing. That is why it is not found in a statue, a book, a magazine, a building.

    Will

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Donkey:

    So then if it is as you say it is there is no hope for me unless God contacts me. I cannot contact that which I do not know.

    Since it appears that you have no desire to "connect with the divine", maybe that is the state of affairs. The deadlock would surely have to be broken by one of the two parties... unless that's the entirely wrong way of looking at the situation (re: parties)...
    I personally wouldn't like to judge your situation. It's not my place. Only you can do that.

    Gumby:
    Regardless of what you "think" - I KNOW you're a b*st*rd!!!

    Will:

    I think the minute you put god on the outside it is turned into a thing which needs explaining, describing, molding, comparing, etc. and all this is done with an extremely inadaquate human mind.

    Agreed.

    All the tools man uses in all cultures to describe & relate to or be controlled by - the god - seem to be just that "tools", for the spiritually immature. (emphasis mine)

    And isn't that just the bottom line. We relate to tools and objects. Even our memory appears to be "sense" bound, wherein we can remember things better if we can attach something, to help recall.
    In the case of the "spiritual", we so often need to do something similar. However as time passes, we move on from the milk...

  • Reslight
    Reslight

    Yes, the God of the Bible is vague at the present time, for it is not yet time for him to make himself known to the world in general. Only a few come to understand who he is and what his purposes are for mankind, the present evil age, etc.

    Indeed, the popular forms of Christianity believe in a good news that falls far short of the truth! The prevalent idea of the good news would have us believe that Christians are God's instruments, amidst earth's present turmoil and confusion, to lead as many as possible to Christ in order that they may not suffer an eternity in some horrible place. This kind of good news has been preached for many centuries. Still millions of earth's population have not even heard the name of Jesus, and know nothing of his saving power! Less than a hundred years ago, it was still popular to believe that the nominal church would convert the world to Christ! Every now and then we still hear some misguided minister urge his flock to save the world for "Jesus"! Billions of dollars have been spent trying to convert the world, or at least as many as possible of the world. But is this what the true Good news is about? Is God trying to convert the world? Is he trying to convert as many as possible of the world? Are we to think that millions, perhaps even billions of God's human creation are on the road to some eternal doom without even hearing the `only name given whereby we must be saved?' -- Acts 4:12.

    Indeed, if the JWs are correct, and there few millions should represent the englightened ones who are to to be spared eternal destruction at the end of this age, then billions of men, women and children who were never englightened by the truth will be eternally destroyed. And from the standpoint of many churches, billions of unenlightened people will be tortured forever in some eternal torture chamber(s). Yet, millions, perhaps, billions have lived and died without ever hearing the name of Jesus. Are these now suffering for all eternity for not having heard of the only name whereby they must be saved? This is what many "fundamentalist" churches teach. Do these ideas truly represent the God of the Bible?

    However, when we look to the Word of God, the Holy Bible, we find that God's great plan of salvation was never intended to be, or ever will be such a failure. The prophet Isaiah foretold the very darkness that has spread over the nations of the earth, but he also foretells its remedy. "Behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people; but Yahweh will arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the nations will come to your light." (Isaiah 60:2,3) How happy we can be that God will not leave the nations of the earth in darkness! He has promised that they will come to his light.

    But why does God permit such a great portion of the earth to remain in darkness? Why is the Bible, to a large degree, a book of parables, symbolisms and dark sayings? Why is it not completely open and clear so that everyone, everywhere would be able to understand it? Why is it that Doctors of Divinity find its details perplexing, mysterious, incomprehensible? What excuse can be offered for the secrecy connected with a subject in which all should be interested? The answer to these questions are discussed in our next study and will open doors of truth, to a proper appreciation of the Bible as the Word of God.

    We should note that the Bible does declare itself to be a book of mysteries, or secrets. The four gospels of the Christian Scriptures (commonly called New Testament) are supposed by many to be the simplest and plainest portion of the Bible. They tell about the deeds and words of Jesus Messiah while he was on this earth. However, in harmony with the prophecies, the Great Teacher himself delivered his message in parables and dark sayings. "He never spoke to the people without using a parable," that "Hearing they might hear and not understand; and seeing, they might see and not perceive." (Matthew 13:14) There are many mysteries or secrets connected with the Bible. We have not reached the time when absolutely everything can be understood in the Bible, not even by the true servants of God. No one on earth today can grasp absolutely everything about the Bible. The conditions of Isaiah 29:18,24 have not yet come. But the Bible does say that "the path of the just is as the shining light, that shines more and more until the perfect day" (Proverbs 4:18). We have not yet attained that perfect day.

    "Therefore I speak to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." -- Matthew 13:13

    Someone might say that Jesus spoke in parables or illustrations so that the people might understand better, but this is not the reason Jesus himself gave. The followers of Jesus once asked him why he spoke to the people in parables. In giving his answer he said: "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." (Matthew 13:13) Jesus then quoted from Isaiah 6:9,10, which we will quote from the Jerusalem Bible: "Go and say to this people, `Hear and hear again, but do not understand; see and see again, but do not perceive.' Make the heart of this people gross, its ears dull; shut its eyes, so that it will not see with its eyes, hear with its ears, understand with its heart, and be converted and healed." Then Jesus said to his followers: "But happy are your eyes because they see, your ears because they hear!" (Matthew 13:16, JB) In Mark 4:11,12, Jesus' answer to his disciples is very clear: "Unto you it is given to know the mystery [secret] of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand." If this explanation is to make any sense at all, we must conclude that he was saying that he spoke in parables to keep the multitudes of people from understanding his message, while a few, his true followers, were permitted to understand.

    "This is good, and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all, the witness of which will be in due time." -- 1 Timothy 2:5-6

    This, of course, must be the way that God has intended for it to be. But why? Because God knows, even as he promised, that eventually `all will be saved, and come the knowledge of the truth.' (1 Timothy 2:4) He knows that the time will come when "the deaf shall hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and darkness" and that those "who erred in spirit will come to understanding, and those who murmured will learn doctrine." (Isaiah 29:18,24 -- New King James Version, hereafter referred to as NKJV) Yes, the time will come when he will "turn to the peoples a pure language" that they may all call upon him with one consent. -- Zephaniah. 3:9.

    "For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all." -- Romans 11:32

    Thousands may read the Bible but fail to understand it. God is keeping its truths secret from the people at the present time, not because he does not love them, but because he does love them. Under the present conditions the truth would be injurious to the majority of people. This is because of the sinful nature of mankind as shown in Isaiah 29. But God still loves them, and whom he loves he disciplines. (John 3:16; Hebrews 12:6) So God has "shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all." (Romans 11:32) How well the true believer today may exclaim: "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God!" -- Romans. 11:33.

    There are many scriptures that speak of the secrecy connected with the message of the Bible. The apostle Paul refers to its tidings as the message "which was a hidden mystery for generations and centuries and has now been revealed to his saints [dedicated ones]." (Colossians 1:26, JB) At this point we should note that the Good News of the Bible was not made known to the world at large, but only to his "saints". Jesus also, when speaking to his Father in prayer, said: "I bless you, Father, Ruler of heaven and of earth, for hiding these things from the learned and the clever and revealing them to mere children. Yes, Father, for that is what it pleased you to do." (Matthew 11:25-26, JB) Often those that are well spoken of and respected by men are passed by, while outwardly despicable people may be chosen to receive His secrets. -- 1 Corinthians 1:26-29

    Proceeding the apostle Paul shows us the necessity for this secretiveness as respects the true message of Good News. He shows that if it were generally known amongst men, the Divine program would at times be interfered with. He tells us that none of the princes or prominent ones of the world understood the wisdom of God -- for had they known it, they would not have put Jesus to death. As he explains: "But as it is written [in Isaiah 64:4]: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things God has prepared for them that love him. But God has revealed them to us by his Spirit .... We have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." -- 1 Corinthians 2:8-13.

    "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," says Yahweh. "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts." -- Isaiah 55:8,9

    However, it is a mistake to suppose that God is not interested in converting the world. (Psalm 22:27; 150:6; Romans 14:11) He is more interested in it than any human could possibly be. Why then did He not give us a simple Bible? The reason for its obscurity must be that men have failed to understand the heavenly Father's design and purpose for the present world. We have already given evidence that He confirmed that there would be much misconception and misunderstanding of Him and His purpose. But once we understand God's purposes, then we can answer the question.

    We must get rid of the misconceived idea that God is NOW trying to convert the world, or that he is NOW trying to save as many as possible from some eternal doom, as most religious people suppose. If God were trying to convert as many as possible of the world to save them from some eternal doom, would he have not been anxious for his disciples to go to all peoples? Instead he told his disciples NOT to go to the Gentiles. (Matthew 10:5) Jesus was not here being cruel, but he knew of His Father's purposes to enlighten the whole world at a future date. We know that God is not now trying to convert the world, because the world is not converted -- far from it! God accomplishes everything he purposes to do. (Isaiah. 55:10,11) If it were God's purpose to convert the world NOW, then the Good News failed -- it did not accomplish its work. But God has not been trying to convert the world. He does not have to try, because He is omnipotent (John 12:37-40). If people of the world had understood the true Bible message, they would have believed, but that was NOT God's purpose (Matthew 13:10-17; 11:23; 10:5,6; Acts 16:6,7; 1 Peter 1:10-12). God did NOT intend that they should NEVER be converted, because he has promised a time to come when they will be converted, but this has not yet begun, nor will it be accomplished as long as this present evil world continues (2 Timothy 3:1,2; 2 Peter 3:3,4; Matthew 24:37; Isaiah 6:9-11; Dan. 12:1; Zephaniah 3:8-13). The Bible tells us that in "the time of the end" of this world there will be a "time of trouble". This will mean great distress and sorrow for the world of mankind. But this does not mean the destruction of this planet, for the promise is that the earth will blossom as the rose. (Isaiah 35:1,2; Genesis 8:21,22; Ecclesiastes 1:4; Isaiah 45:17,18; Genesis 13:15; 15:18; Acts 7:4,5) The present order of things will be destroyed, and a new order of things will be established. God's Word will continue to be misunderstood until this age (this present evil world) is over. (Zephaniah 3:8,9) Then the darkness surrounding the true Good News will be removed (Isaiah. 25:7; Haggai 2:7). God has purposed the conversion of the world, but not during the past 2000 years. The reason why the Good News is kept secret is that his plans might be hidden from all but the truly meek and lowly at heart who respond to his call, until the due time for all to know. Our Lord was glad that these things were hidden, and thought it right for the Heavenly Father to keep them hidden from the worldly. -- Matthew 11:25,26.

    In Isaiah 29:11 it is declared prophetically that the vision of all things (Lesser) is become as the words of a sealed book. Men have turned things upside down, as was foretold (vs. 16). The world needs to be enlightened! Will the world be enlightened by missionaries being sent out in this present evil world? The facts indicate that it will never happen this way. The day in which the world will be enlightened is called in the Bible the "judgment day". It is not a 24-hour day, but as shown in 2 Peter 3:7,8, it is a 1000 year day. During that judgment day the inhabitants of the earth will learn righteousness. -- Isaiah 26:9

    What now stands in the way of the enlightenment of world? -1- Satan the Devil puts evil thoughts and desires into men's minds and hearts. Hence, if the world is to be enlightened, Satan must be removed that he might not use his power to mislead people. (Revelation 20:2,3) -2-Imperfect missionaries now lack the power and means to accomplish the work. Worldly governments interfere. It will not be so in that Millennial day, for the entire world will then be under the control of Jesus and his authorized agents. (Daniel 2:35,44; Isaiah 11:9; Psalm 72:2-8) -3-Suitably trained teachers must be chosen. Men have thought that they could chose and train them, but only God can do that, and instead of a three or four years' training, it takes all of a dedicated lifetime (Romans 8:18,19; 1 Thessalonians 2:12; 1 Corinthians 6:2; Isaiah 26:9). -4-Ignorance, darkness, confusion prevail now, and there are many confusing, contradictory, false religious teachings; but in that day the knowledge of God will fill the whole earth, and all will know him. (Isaiah 11:9; Jeremiah 31:34) The Good News message contained in the Bible will come out of its obscurity as its message is made plain (2 Corinthians. 4:4; 1 Corinthians. 11:13-15). Will God give mankind a new Bible? We do not think so. However, provisions will be made so that its books will be opened and all will be judged by the things written in those books (Revelation 20:12,13; Isaiah 29:18). God will remove the vail that is spread over all nations (Isaiah 25:7; 2 Corinthians 4:3). The way will then be made so plain that even a foolish man will not err therein (Isaiah 35:8). Now the Good news message is so obscure that even the wise men stumble at it (John 6:60,61). Yes, the day of judgment is coming, when Jesus will judge everyone in righteousness -- Acts 17:31.

    But what about those who have died -- especially those who have died without ever hearing of Jesus (Jesus)? How will they benefit from this enlightenment if they are dead? God has promised that he will awaken all of these from the sleep of death. "Marvel not at this, for an hour is coming, in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall come forth, they that have practiced good to a resurrection of life; and they that did evil, to a resurrection of judgment [Greek -- krisis]." (John 5:28,29 -- King James II Version). Jesus is the true light that enlightens every man that comes into the world (John 1:9). The light will enter their hearts also (1 Timothy 1:4). God wills all men to be saved [delivered from death], and to come to an accurate knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4) The salvation spoken of here is not salvation into life for all eternity, but rather salvation [deliverance] from the death state. Having arisen from the dead, they are then taught the truth that they might be saved eternally.

    For more on this, see:
    http:/reslight.addr.com/understanding.html

    In service of Jesus,
    Ronald

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Reslight,

    Indeed, if the JWs are correct, and there few millions should represent the englightened ones who are to to be spared eternal destruction at the end of this age, then billions of men, women and children who were never englightened by the truth will be eternally destroyed.

    Reslight's "Booggie man Jehovah" is the same as the JW's Boogie man Jehovah, he chopping at the bit and will soon murder everyone for not being a JW. Too funny.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    "Happy are those who have not seen and yet believe...."

    "Seek and you will Find..."

    "Non Nobis Domine Non Nobis"

    Keeping the faith......

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