by ThiChi 68 Replies latest social current
Hey Freded, wtf is up with equating being a liberal or a democrat with "JW's have no "sense of nation" " or " they seem to have no loyalty to anything?" ??
This liberal has a sense of nation, loyalty to it, and a willingness to call liars on their lies.
Glad you're not "pointing the finger" when you tell liberals they have no loyalty, fredup. Now that's partisan...
6/9 It is obvious that you do have things that you are passionate about perhaps more than just writing things on a discussion forum. I was not making a blanket statement and my observations of JWs are not limited to this board. You would have to agree that JW's have no loyality to the country they are living in. Now is that thinking carried forward when they leave? When jws become xjws are they more liberal or conservative. Although there are some conversative xjws on this board it seems that liberals far out number the conservatives, am I wrong on that?
What does conservative or liberal have to do with loyalty?
Are you suggesting that if you noticed most xJWs here were conservative that you would believe being conservative equalled disloyalty. And in what aspect are you insinuating liberals are disloyal. Further what is it you are calling disloyal. Free speech? Criticizing a reckless administration? Question the real patriotism of a sitting president?
There has been a thread theorizing about the lib/con makeup... I suspect that the largest portion hasn't formed political opinions yet. There are more liberal than conservative loud voices at present, but historically that has not always been the case.
You would have to agree that JW's have no loyality to the country they are living in. Now is that thinking carried forward when they leave? When jws become xjws are they more liberal or conservative. Although there are some conversative xjws on this board it seems that liberals far out number the conservatives, am I wrong on that?
I would agree with you as to JW's having no loyalty to country. As to the other, I wouldn't venture a guess (it seems fairly even to me, but I don't really notice unless the numbers are overwhelming one way or the other). I think what may happen, is that ex-JW's are inherently deep thinkers (at that particular point in their lives anyway), and will not easily confuse say, not critisizing the commander in chief during war, with patriotism or loyalty. The fact that we have not had years of emotional "warmies" when the flag salute and similar experiences come along, may render us a bit innoculated from the "blind-patriotism" disease.
As to conservatives vs liberals, well, I'm a very conservative person, but I am anything but a "conservative". This is because "conservative" as used politically, has come to have only the narrowest, shallowest of meanings: conserve the status quo (and maybe even regress a bit). I find "preserving the status quo, or going backwards" to be wildly reckless.
Imo, "liberal", as used politically, has kept more of it's real meaning, so I'm proud to call myself a liberal, and even prouder to call myself a progressive. It's all good.
It's really about believing in win/win situations. Many people just can't get their mind around that; In their view, for us to retain free access to McDonalds in Peoria, a few billion brown people with big noses need to die in Damascus..... Yes, that's hyperbole, but it's based on some rather chilling conversations I've had with some people who would consider themselves very "conservative" Americans. I appreciate that they are just very afraid, but I don't really want fear based government.
And neither do you.
Bush keeps me in a constant state of "shock and awe" with his insensitivity, stupidity and ruthless ambition.
As for Bush and his "strong leadership" on Sept. 11, as I recall it Bush was hiding in a bunker that day. Our true leaders that day where Dick Cheney -- who stayed in the White House even though he knew there was a jet headed straight for it; Rudi Giuliani -- who personally took charge at ground zero and the countless firefighters and NYPD who risked and lost their lives to save others, while Bush was hiding in his Presidential bunker, like the coward he is.
George Bush makes me sick and he continues to sink to new levels of breath-taking stupidity. For him to try to take political advantage of Sept. 11 is truly reprehensible. And I only hope Americans have the good sense to not give him a second term as president.
It's really about believing in win/win situations. Many people just can't get their mind around that; In their view, for us to retain free access to McDonalds in Peoria, a few billion brown people with big noses need to die in Damascus..... Yes, that's hyperbole, but it's based on some rather chilling conversations I've had with some people who would consider themselves very "conservative" Americans. I appreciate that they are just very afraid, but I don't really want fear based government.
Eh? Are you accusing conservatives of racism? Just because we don't think that radically reengineering society to the whims of every Five Year Plan is a good idea? Because we think that people usually solve their own problems to their own satisfaction, and that offering too much help just invites being taken advantage of? Wow, pat, I wouldn't have expected such wanton language from you.
Iraq is NOT about oil. Stablizing a region of the world that has long fostered dictatorships and fanaticism, that's what it was about, and that's what it is doing.
The accusation of civilian casualties is a just one. It's sad when our war machine hits the wrong thing. I supported the war, ergo, I am just as guilty of those civilian casualties as the soldiers who hit the buttons. But you also have to take into account the nature of Saddam - and his sons. their demonic treatment of their own citizens killed thousands of civilians. Those of you who supported inaction on our part must bear responsibility for the thousands of Iraqis killed by Saddam, just like Communists everywhere are guilty of the Stalinist excesses and the foul deeds of the Khmer Rouge. You are putting your faith in a system that gives an insane amount of power to the very same people you claim to despise.
Saddam had to go. The world is growing up and starting to recognize its moral responsibilities.
I can't accuse liberals of not being patriotic, just because they slam the president. that's their american duty, to call it as they see it. But I do think it is not good for the country to undermine a leader based on personal dislike. Remember, it took a lot of Democrat votes to pass the Patriot Act, so if you don't like it, you should also call them on it.
CZAR
Just because we don't think that radically reengineering society to the whims of every Five Year Plan is a good idea? Because we think that people usually solve their own problems to their own satisfaction
So which is it? If Iraq isn't "radically reengineering" a society, I don't know what is.
Iraq is NOT about oil. Stablizing a region of the world that has long fostered dictatorships and fanaticism, that's what it was about, and that's what it is doing.
If it's not about war profiteering, then GW Bush and Dick Cheney should have kept their Oil services friends far away from the action, cuz it sure looks bad.
And if it's "Stablizing a region of the world that has long fostered dictatorships and fanaticism", then the people who serve there, and their parents and loved ones, and all of America for that matter, had a right to know that's what the war was about, didn't they Czar?
czar--- just what the hell is this ----Those of you who supported inaction on our part must bear responsibility for the thousands of Iraqis killed by Saddam, just like Communists everywhere are guilty of the Stalinist excesses and the foul deeds of the Khmer Rouge.---- I think it more that those who sold Saddam the technology and WOMD should shoulder that responsiblity . The US government itself is to blame for that and their greed for oil was one of the main reasons . It's unfortunate that people die at the hands of brutal dictators but why should people who want piece start a friggen war? I was just watching how the huge debt involved with all of this is plotting a course for some serious problems in the US , they are predicting a very dismal outlook and spending social security money to pay for this . How in the hell can people ignore the fact that these tactics only make things worse for the american people and not better ?
