God does exist... (page 20)

SixofNine

Wasa, you spit in God's eye when you spurn bankruptcy!

Excellent thoughts. With a few small changes, your post could be my own. As rem pointed out 7 pages ago:

I have searched for god. I didn't go from a believing JW to non-believing atheist overnight. I prayed hard. I cried. I studied. I cried some more.

One silver-lining in the whole "raised-as-a-witness" debacle, is that we aren't going to sit by and let anyone question our sincerity in the search for truth.

This point by rem also describes me, and probably most atheist/agnostics:

If there is good evidence of one or more gods, I'd be happy to believe.

See, it's not god that we non-believers bristle at, it's the insanity of holding firm, dogmatic belief in things for which there is not firm evidence. We've seen the fruits of that spirit.

Love_Truth

Wasa,

A few things I'd comment on in your post:

- are you atheist or agnostic? You describe yourself by both labels in your post.

- I do believe God answers our prayers, however, I don't ask for anything other than strength, wisdom, understanding, fruits of the spirit, etc. To ask God to "take away" an affliction, or to "grant a wish", or to provide something material, is wrong, IMHO. I generally give thanks to God in my prayers, and yes, there is always something to give thanks for. It's all attitude (is the glass half empty or half full). And I'm speaking as someone who has endured much hardship throughout my life (I'm currently writing an autobiography after constant prodding throughout my life by friends and others I've told some of my stories to). I've also received many blessings, as well. Are those due to God answering my heart's desire? Or is it because I accept the human condition, imperfect, yet resilient, emotional, yet wise. I've been through most of what you wrote and more (my Mom's got cancer as of this writing).

I'm not knocking your perspective, simply giving another view. We're all as individual as fingerprints, and in the end, God will judge us each as individuals. I just don't personally blame God for bad things happening- it's part and parcel of life since Adam sinned, and paseed on that sin to humanity.

I wish you and yours the best.

LittleToe,

I'll consider your advice re: Abaddon. Thanks. (Although I don't mind debating the flood, or anything else, with anyone).

Abaddon,

I'll get to your issues during this week- It's a busy one for me. As for the test, I think that's rather condescending, dude. I have a good friend with a post graduate degree in Biology, and he believes as I do. I have a graduate degree (BSEE) as well, and decades of experience as an Engineer, much of which rests on understanding physical laws. I could make up a test for you just as well. I frankly find it somewhat childish. I will, however, as usual, answer your post. I'll close this brief response by reminding you that, in these matters (Bible's accuracy, Flood, Creation vs Evolution, etc), there is no irrefutable proof, only "best guesses" based on the evidence at hand. So, for evry "expert opinion" you can provide, I can do likewise. But, that having beemn said, I'm a sucker for debates of this nature, so look for my response(s) sometime this week.

Cheers to all,

Love_Truth

SixofNine

They are about developing a living relationship.
If you don't have that relationship in the first place, how can you expect to get "stuff"???

That's rather a low blow Little Toe, as I can guarantee you that I, and I'm sure wasa, made every effort to sincerly try and devolop a "living relationship" with god. For you to assume otherwise is rather mocking, imo. It seems to me your own faith, even now, hinges on you getting "stuff", ie, "what you need (even if not what you want)" out of your relationship with god.

Also, considering your comments on definitions in this thread, why is the definition of prayer being givin such a LT-centric definition; why should we accept it, what are it's merits; what is it's origin, and is it still ok to ask for our daily bread?

wasasister

LittleToe, Loves_Truth, and others:

Of course, my prayers were not "shopping lists" or requests to God to take away affliction. I merely disproved God by the same standard of evidence as the original post. God answered my prayers, therefore He exists/God didn't answer my equally sincere and worthy prayers, therefore he does not exist.

Quid pro quo.

As a Jehovah's Witness, I was taught not to pray for selfish things, such as medical insurance. What I prayed for was strength, help, endurance, more faith, etc. All the things Good Little Christians are taught to ask the Heavenly Helper for.

And what more could my dying mother have asked from the God she gave her entire life to, other than release from the searing pain? Do you think she was surprised when God did not listen to her? Did she feel it in the end, that he had left her? Is that perhaps what Jesus found out as he died a horrific death...that God had forsaken him?

Maybe the foxhole is where we really find out how alone we are....

And BTW, does anyone think Czar's problems were any more dire than what I described? Does his petition for help carry any more merit than mine, Sixo's, a devout Jew, Muslim??? Which "shopping lists" does God read, anyway?

gumby

I'll give a true story to explai my thoughts.

A busload of CHRISTIAN youths were going on a trip to share the gospel with those less fortunate.....and to share jesus. They all prayed and sang songs before and during the trip. The bus wrecks, flips over an embankment, and burns. God saw the whole thing.

Picture looking at your child giving you praise and loving you so much they are going off to campaign for you in some way and as they drive off, their car catches fire. You stand there and watch your child burn alive in that car. That's EXACTLY what god did in my eyes to those kids who crashed and burned in the van.......he let it happen. Why? What POSSIBLE reason could be good enough to let your loving children suffer horrible deaths? There IS NO REASON to me and there never will be.

Gumby

wasasister

Oh, sorry, Loves_Truth, I forgot to answer your points:

- are you atheist or agnostic? You describe yourself by both labels in your post.

I am probably more accurately an agnostic, since I would not dispute the existence of a Creator, if solid evidence was presented. Right now, I just don't care.

I do believe God answers our prayers, however, I don't ask for anything other than strength, wisdom, understanding, fruits of the spirit, etc.

Isn't that convenient? You only ask for things you know you can supply all by yourself. That way, you are never disappointed. How clever.

LittleToe

Six:

That's rather a low blow... ...why is the definition of prayer being givin such a LT-centric definition;

Touche!

I in no way intended to question anyone's sincerity (honestly, that's the last thing I want to do), so I was merely presenting my own experiential opinion. Feel free to prove it, take it, or leave it, as with so many of my comments.

Wasa:

I merely disproved God by the same standard of evidence as the original post.

As valid a point as the original post. I hope you weren't offended by my reply. None was intended.

Which "shopping lists" does God read, anyway?

IMHO, he reads them all, but replies to those of "His" choosing. I highly suspect (theologically speaking) it has more to do with those whom are in an adoptive relationship with "Him".

A better way of putting it would be that when one is in tune with the universe ("God"), and is "moved" to interact in a certain way (use the power of the mind, i.e. pray), things happen that might otherwise have been beyond out control.
The mechanics of that are currently scientifically unprovable, however.

Gumby:
I have no answer for that one, but you know that already, I'm sure.

Just my 2p.

SixofNine

A better way of putting it would be that when one is in tune with the universe ("God"), and is "moved" to interact in a certain way (use the power of the mind, i.e. pray), things happen that might otherwise have been beyond out control.
The mechanics of that are currently scientifically unprovable, however.

oh oh oh!!!! hold me back!!, hold me back.... aaarggghhh *hand shoots out like Dr. Strangelove*

NIEN!!

I VILL NOT!!!

must.... not... can not.... can't resist....

*pats Little Toe on the head*

gumby

I agree 100% with what six just said

Gumby

SixofNine

One young brother, serving as a missionary in the middle east, put it this way:

Our Heavenly Father, may your name be honored;

May your kingdom come, and your will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.

Give us this day the bread we need,

Forgive us what we owe to you, as we have also forgiven those who owe anything to us.

Keep us clear of temptation, and save us from evil.

Sadly, even amongst elders we find a tendency towards flowery speech and new-age thought in their prayers, rather than the humble yet demandingly simple style shown by the responsible young brother above.

God does exist...

Share this