by Simon 52 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Ya see, in the military, honor...that's a real thing with us...violations of honor are viewed quite dimly...sleep with a civilians wife you're told to be careful...sleep with another soldier's wife...you're a scum bag.
Military honor?What about all those strippers and prostitutes many of the married men see while on deployment? Be careful? That's real honor.
19. The values which have been outlined above underpin the ethos of the Army, and so contribute directly to the maintenance of fighting power. In order to sustain these values, every soldier must strive to achieve and maintain the highest professional and personal standards, thereby enhancing both the competence and cohesion of the team. Soldiers should therefore avoid any activity which risks degrading their professional ability, and any personal behaviour which may damage morale by putting at risk the trust and respect that must exist between individuals who depend on each other. The same principle applies to any behaviour which calls into question the integrity of those in a position of responsibility and so undermines his or her authority in the eyes of subordinates. It is for this reason that the Army must take a different and more prescriptive approach towards certain types of behaviour and relationships which might, in most other employments, be regarded purely as a matter of individual choice or morality, and of no concern to the wider community. Within the close-knit and mutually supporting military community, where the consequences of a breakdown in trust are potentially so severe, such behaviour has an additional dimension.
20. When considering possible cases of misconduct, and in determining whether the Army has a duty to intervene in the personal lives of its soldiers, commanders at every level must consider each case against the following Service Test :
"Have the actions or behaviour of an individual adversely impacted or are they likely to impact on the efficiency or operational effectiveness of the Army?"
This Service Test lies at the heart of the Armed Forces Code of Social Conduct, and is equally applicable to all forms of conduct.
21. All soldiers are subject to the civil law wherever they are serving, and have a duty to uphold it. In that respect they are no different from other citizens, and all civil offences have been fully embraced within military law under Section 70 of the Army Act 1955. In addition, when deployed on operations soldiers are subject to the laws of armed conflict and to the local law wherever they are serving. Taken together, such civil laws establish the baseline for the standards of personal conduct of the soldier as a citizen. The remainder of this section focuses on those areas of conduct where, for reasons of operational effectiveness, the Army insists upon standards that are in some respects more demanding than those which obtain more generally in British society.
24. In the area of personal relationships, the overriding operational imperative to sustain team cohesion and to maintain trust and loyalty between commanders and those they command imposes a need for standards of social behaviour which are more demanding than those required by society at large. Such demands are equally necessary during peacetime and on operations. Examples of behaviour which can undermine such trust and cohesion, and therefore damage the morale or discipline of a unit (and hence its operational effectiveness) include: unwelcome sexual attention in the form of physical or verbal conduct; over-familiarity with the spouses or partners of other Service personnel; displays of affection which might cause offence to others; behaviour which damages or hazards the marriage or personal relationships of Service personnel or civilian colleagues within the wider defence community; and taking sexual advantage of subordinates. It is important to acknowledge in the tightly knit military community a need for mutual respect and a requirement to avoid conduct which offends others. Each case will be judged on its merits.
25. It is not practicable to list every type of conduct that may constitute social misbehaviour. The seriousness with which misconduct will be regarded will depend on the individual circumstances and the potential for adversely affecting operational effectiveness. Nevertheless, misconduct involving abuse of position, trust or rank, or taking advantage of an individual?s separation, will be viewed as being particularly serious.
Values and Standards of the British Army
I would imagine judging from the articles quoted, most militaries hold themselves and those enlisted in them to a different standard and when convenient use those standards to punish individuals. It's part and parcel of enlisting....I can't say I agree with it but I believe most people are made aware of it prior to enlisting.
My father was career military and it was a lot like a religion for him, at one point in time he told us that his allegiance to the military and his country came before his family. It was a real warm and fuzzy moment for all of us.
Gitas,
Yeru,Rather then be a man about it, you got a man imprisoned, deprived of his children. It's really none of my business except you bragged about it. As for the custody of your kids and your exwife, that's none of mine at all. Still, your concept of honor is pretty odd, and at the very least an anachronism.
I have NO IDEA what your definition of "a man" is. I would imagine it differs greatly from mine. He deprived himself of his child...he knew the rules...and was warned...he lost the kids because he couldn't keep custody of his son after being forced to move to the barracks because he was kicked out of military housing because he was shacking up with another soldier's wife....of which he was also warned...he was imprisoned because he violated a direct order given to him by his commander.
My ex (to her credit) didn't fight me for custody of the kids because she knew that at the time should couldn't care for them...I do credit her for that...that is...after she tried about five times (unsuccessfully) to get me to beat her up.
Somehow I think your concept of honor and mine are also different....had you ever served in the military you wouldn't find our code an anachronism at all...but necessary and relevant.
Simon,
It's nothing like Muslim Fundamentalist rules, rather, it's a necessary law to maintain good order and discipline in the military.
Flyin High,
Military honor?What about all those strippers and prostitutes many of the married men see while on deployment? Be careful? That's real honor.
What goes TDY (Temporary Duty) stays TDY.
Actually, it's not as prevelant with the married guys as some people think...too much for sure goes on...but not as much...
besides...that honor thing...it applies more to honor among theives really...the code is...YOU DON"T MESS WITH ANOTHER SOLDIER'S FAMILY. And for some of us...the honor thing goes well beyond that. But even when I was single...I never messed with another guys wife....even a civilian...and the chance was there.
Xena,
Depending on how your Dad meant his comment, it's unfortunately true...sometimes I have to choose between spending time with the kids on the weekend or writing the evaluations for my soldiers...upon which their careers rest...it's never a fun choice...but I NEVER feel guilty when I can scoot out a few hours early either.
when convenient
The Canadian military has the same standards. They are not enforced, nor do most of the people serving live up to them, at least as far as adultery is concerned. Having grown up in Canada's eastern military 'centre', I have had numerous friends in the military. One of my friends is a career seaman (and an officer), and married to a really good friend of mine. We have all known each other since we were about 20.
He told me years ago how the conduct of his fellow shipmates disgusted him. When they would be on NATO tour (often lasting 4-6 months), the guys couldn't wait to get into port so that they could go out whoring around. Even his best friend on ship (married) would head straight to the prostitutes as soon as they got shore leave. This is accepted behaviour in the (Canadian) military. The rules are enforced only when someone kicks up a fuss, or there is a possibility of scandal.
Also, you would not believe the amount of cheating that goes on when husbands are at sea. It is a hard lifestyle on marriages.
AND YES, not everyone does it, that's not what I'm saying.
talesin
Edit: Yeru, PLENTY of it goes on here - I have spent my life working with and being friends with military, and I will tell you that plenty of sailor's wives have affairs with their husband's shipmates. It is all too frequent an occurrance - it just doesn't get addressed by the military - more often than not, just the divorce courts.
Also, you would not believe the amount of cheating that goes on when husbands are at sea. It is a hard lifestyle on marriages.
It's a free for all....if a guy can't get some in a military town during a deployment he's a total loser...or has a conscience...
Look, my issue is with military folks messing with other military families because of the good order and discipline issue.
And to an earlier question...fornication isn't detrimental to good order and discipline as adultery (wiith another service member or their spouse) can be...that's why it's different.
Yeru
I agree with you. The special rules are there for a reason, and a good one, for the reasons you stated earlier.
It's a difficult life, for all involved. The military should imho work harder at upholding their standards. Remember the scandal a few years ago, that caused the disbanding of the Canadian Special Forces (well, at least they SAY it has been disbanded, you know, officially)?
There are many honourable men and women serving in the forces who are NOT cheaters. I take my hat off to those individuals who live by the 'code of honour' they profess.
tal
Ya see, in the military, honor...that's a real thing with us...violations of honor are viewed quite dimly...sleep with a civilians wife you're told to be careful...sleep with another soldier's wife...you're a scum bag.
According to MSNBC:
In the last 18 months, there have been 112 reports of sexual misconduct in the U.S. armed forces in Iraq, Afghanistan and Kuwait, almost all of them cases in which American servicewomen are being attacked by U.S. servicemen.
?What does it say about us as a people, as a nation, as the foremost military in the world when our women soldiers sometimes have more to fear from their fellow soldiers than from the enemy?? said Sen. Susan Collins of the Armed Services Committee.
There is HONOR for you!
Makes you wonder how the Iraqi women are fairing.
Gretchen
Look, my issue is with military folks messing with other military families because of the good order and discipline issue.
And for those reasons, it seems to me to be a good law. Military members are not allowed to become involved sexually with each other at all (unless married), if I understand it correctly?
According to MSNBC:In the last 18 months, there have been 112 reports of sexual misconduct in the U.S. armed forces in Iraq, Afghanistan and Kuwait, almost all of them cases in which American servicewomen are being attacked by U.S. servicemen.
?What does it say about us as a people, as a nation, as the foremost military in the world when our women soldiers sometimes have more to fear from their fellow soldiers than from the enemy?? said Sen. Susan Collins of the Armed Services Committee.
There is HONOR for you!
Makes you wonder how the Iraqi women are fairing.
Gretchen
I agree, it's horrible. However, let's compare that to a city with a population of 150,000 and remember that even attempting to kiss someone is considered sexual misconduct...and that women are much more likely to report in the military...even though it's still under reported....and that some of those 112 cases involve the same person...and that some very few of them will be either misunderstandings or false reports...and we're actually doing better than the population as a whole....but I agree, there are still too many incidents...and part of it stems from the double standard applied to enlisted and officers. Enlisted guys go to jail...officers retire.
