Yes, Herk, 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. But what does 1 x 1 x 1 equal? Yes, ONE.
"my Father is greater than I" and the Trinity
by hooberus 86 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
herk
UnDisfellowshipped,
And yet, at John 1:1, you claim that the first time "God" is mentioned refers to The Almighty, but the 2nd time "God" is mentioned refers to an inferior, lesser, created being separate from The Almighty.
You have no idea of how I understand John 1:1. I doubt you would even try to grasp what the apostle John meant by his prologue. Again, you make an attempt to link me with what JWs believe.
I'm waiting to see how you differentiate yourself from Catholics who, according to your description, are image worshippers precisely because they worship the Trinity.
Yes, Herk, 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. But what does 1 x 1 x 1 equal? Yes, ONE.
This type of reasoning is what convinces me that Trinitarians just aren't interested in knowing the truth about God. One God the Father plus one God the Son plus one God the Holy Ghost is 1 + 1 + 1, not 1 X 1 X 1. Anyone who loves truth would think a little bit and not insert pathetic nonsense into the discussion.
herk
-
-
-
UnDisfellowshipped
Herk, I DO know what you claim to believe about John 1:1, from our previous discussions, UNLESS you have changed your beliefs since then.
Herk said:
I'm waiting to see how you differentiate yourself from Catholics who, according to your description, are image worshippers precisely because they worship the Trinity.
Herk, you are misquoting me.
The Catholics are image-worshipers BECAUSE they worship images NOT because they worship the Trinity! They worship images of Mary, Jesus, saints, the Popes, the Trinity, etc.
The Catholics also worship the Pope, Mary, saints, etc.
Do you or do you not believe that Jesus (The Word) in John 1:1 is an inferior, lesser created being separate from The Amighty?
-
herk
UnDisfellowshipped,
Which is the real you?
Herk, I DO know what you claim to believe about John 1:1.
or
Do you or do you not believe that Jesus (The Word) in John 1:1 is an inferior, lesser created being separate from The Amighty?
herk
-
LittleToe
Herk:Ah, prelude to the name calling...
Not long to wait, now, until you storm off and start ignoring whole posts, rather than just the parts you want to reply to...See also:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/69282/1088843/post.ashx#1088843 -
UnDisfellowshipped
Herk,
You have not even attempted to answer even ONE of the several questions I have asked you regarding "the hope that is in you". You are working directly against the Holy Scriptures by not "giving a defense for the hope that is in you".
Also, in all of your many, many posts on this Thread in reply to me, I have not seen one Scripture used to refute any of my points. I have seen a lot of cartoons which you are good at making, but which really have nothing to do with any of my questions.
Hooberus said:
Actually, Hooberus, from what I have read in the Bible, Jesus has and always will be "in subjection" to The Father, because even now in His Glorified Exalted Risen place above the Heavens at the right hand of The Father, He is still in subjection to The Father (The Father is the God of Christ and the Head of Christ).Interestingly the Bible says that Jesus "took upon him the form of a servant":
"But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:" Phillippians 2:7
The phrase "took upon him the form of servant" would seem to indicte that prior to the time of talking on thre form of a servant that Jesus was not then in the form of a servant. This is a poweful argument that Jesus and the Father were positionally equal prior to the incarnation. This would also seem to contradict the Watchtower premise that Jesus existed as "a servant" for millions of years prior to the incarnation.
-
UnDisfellowshipped
It is interesting to read about Jesus Christ's actions in the Old Testament, and how people viewed Him:
Genesis 1:26-27: Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our Image, according to Our Likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created man in His own Image; in the Image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
God created man in His own Image, and yet, there is more than One Person who is God.
Joshua 5:13 - 6:2: And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, "Are You for us or for our adversaries?" So He said, "No, but as Commander of the army of the L ord I have now come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped, and said to Him, "What does my Lord say to His servant?" Then the Commander of the L ORD 's army said to Joshua, "Take your sandal off your foot, for the place where you stand is holy." And Joshua did so. N ow Jericho was securely shut up because of the children of Israel; none went out, and none came in. And the LORD [Yahweh] said to Joshua: "See! I have given Jericho into your hand, its king, and the mighty men of valor.
Jesus, The Commander of the Army of Yahweh, was also Yahweh, and Joshua worshiped Him as God, and even had to take off his sandals because the ground was holy because God The Son Himself was present.
This Commander [Jesus] of the Army of Yahweh can be seen throughout the Old Testament, referred to as THE Angel of Yahweh, or as THE Messenger of Yahweh.
When people were visited by THE Angel of Yahweh in the Old Testament, the Scriptures always refer to Him as God or as Yahweh, but as being a separate Person from The Father. My Personal Beliefs about Jesus Christ:
Below are my personal beliefs about Jesus Christ, based on what I have read in the Scriptures, however, you should never ever believe what I say about the Scriptures, unless you closely examine the Scriptures, and make sure what is true, just like the Noble-Minded Beroeans:I believe that Jesus Christ is God, but not the Father.
A husband is "the head" of the wife, but the husband does not have a better nature or essence than the wife, does he?
A husband is "greater" (in position) than his wife, but he is not "better" than his wife (in nature as a Human) is he?
I believe that the Father is "The Head" (in Position) of Jesus Christ (because Jesus willingly submits to the Father's Final Decision), but that Jesus Christ is Equal to the Father in His Nature and Essence.
Jesus Christ is my God (See John 20:28, John 1:1, Hebrews 1:8, Romans 9:5, Isaiah 9:6, Titus 2:13, 2nd Peter 1:1, Jude 1:4)
Jesus Christ is the Creator (See John 1:3, Hebrews 1:10, Colossians 1:16-17)
I pray to Jesus Christ (See 2nd Corinthians 12:8-10, Acts 7:59-60, 1st Corinthians 1:2)
I worship Jesus Christ (See Hebrews 1:6, Revelation 5:9-14)
-
UnDisfellowshipped
This is a friendly challenge to Herk:
If you can refute (disprove) any of my personal beliefs below, by reasoning and explaining from the Holy Scriptures (and not cartoons), then I will definitely forsake them, and I will stop believing in them.Jesus Christ [The Word/Logos] created the Heavenly angels:
Colossians 1:16: For by Him [Jesus Christ] all things were created, in the Heavens and on the Earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through Him, and for Him.
Colossians 1:17: He is before all things, and in Him all things are held together.Jesus Christ [The Word/Logos] created all things:
John 1:3: All things were made through Him [The Word]. Without Him not one thing was made that has been made.
Colossians 1:16: For by Him [Jesus Christ] all things were created, in the Heavens and on the Earth, things visible and things invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been created through Him, and for Him.
Ephesians 3:9: ...God, who created all things through Jesus Christ...
Yahweh [Jehovah] the Supreme Being created all things alone, all by Himself:
Isaiah 44:24: Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who stretches forth the Heavens alone; who spreads abroad the Earth (who is with Me?);
Nehemiah 9:6: You are Yahweh, even You alone; You have made Heaven, the Heaven of Heavens, with all their Army, the Earth and all things that are on it, the seas and all that is in them, and You preserve them all; and the Army of Heaven worships You.
Revelation 4:11: "Worthy are You, our Lord and God, the Holy One, to receive the glory, the honor, and the power, for You created all things, and because of Your desire they existed, and were created!"
Revelation 10:5: The angel who I saw standing on the sea and on the land lifted up his right hand to the sky,
Revelation 10:6: and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created Heaven and the things that are in it, the Earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it...Yahweh [Jehovah] the Supreme Being created "the Heavens and the Earth":
Psalm 102:25: Of old, You [Yahweh] laid the foundation of the Earth. The Heavens are the work of Your hands.
Jesus Christ [The Word/Logos] created "the Heavens and the Earth":
Hebrews 1:10: And, "You, Lord [Yahweh], in the beginning, laid the foundation of the Earth. The Heavens are the works of Your hands.
The angels did not create anything ever:
Isaiah 44:24: Thus says Yahweh, your Redeemer, and He who formed you from the womb: I am Yahweh, who makes all things; who stretches forth the Heavens alone; who spreads abroad the Earth (who is with Me?);
Job 38: 4-7: " Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
Jesus Christ is the ONLY Ruler and currently the ONLY Immortal One:
1st Timothy 6:14-16: that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing, which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.
Jesus Christ will be King and Lord and God FOREVER:
Luke 1:31: Behold, you will conceive in your womb, and bring forth a Son, and will call His Name 'JESUS.'
Luke 1:32: He will be Great, and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of His father, David,
Luke 1:33: and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever. There will be no end to His Kingdom."Isaiah 9:7: Of the increase of His [Jesus Christ's] Government and of peace there shall be no end, on the throne of David, and on His Kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from henceforth even forever. The zeal of Yahweh of Hosts will perform this.
Daniel 7:14: There was given Him [Jesus Christ] dominion, and glory, and a Kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His Kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
2nd Peter 1:11: For thus will be richly supplied to you the entrance into the Eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Hebrews 1:8: but of the Son He says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; The scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your Kingdom