"my Father is greater than I" and the Trinity

by hooberus 86 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • herk
    herk

    Hooberus,

    Yes others have also digressed here, in fact this thread has gone on to other Trinity issues. My points were primarily for future posts of mine.

    The fact remains that you singled me out. Isn't it dishonest to now say "I meant the other posters as well" when you didn't even hint that you objected to their digressions?

    If you think that the Trinity doctrine is unscriptural then present your side from the scriptures rather than from illustrations which many times use insults, and misrepresentation of others beliefs.

    "One of the lawyers said to Jesus in reply, 'Teacher, when you say this, you insult us.'" (Luke 11:45) Could it be in your case as well that the insults are in the mind of the beholder?

    And if you can't make your case without violating posting guidelines, you don't belong on the forum.

    A statement like that betrays your soft spot, Hoob. Where did you get this authority to establish laws for the rest of us? Where are the forum rules that I've in any way violated? It's quite obvious that my pictures have said more than you can bear in exposing the Trinity doctrine as false and its teachers as not abiding by the Bible.

    herk

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Herk:

    It's quite obvious...

    Maybe to a blind Dutchman, living in Florence...

    Just answer the question, and stop being so evasive. It's getting boring.

  • herk
  • hooberus
    hooberus

    Herk, here is a shortened version of my comments and revelant posting guidelines:

    Please do not post illustrations unrelated to the specific subject of the thread (For example Trinity illustrations unrelated to to the subject of this thread- John 14:28). If however I start a general Trinity thread then feel free to post illustrations that you feel accurately represent Trinitarian teaching (even though this is primarily a written discussion forum). However, I feel that you should stick primarily to written discussions, rather than to illustrations. Related posting guideline: Posting an off-topic comment.

    Threads which are primarily insulting in nature, (such as one which depict Trinitarians as being deliberately dishonest) are possibly a vioation of posting guidelines and generally do not add to constructive dialogue. Related posting guideline: Insulting, threatening or provoking language

    Please carefully examine you illustrations before posting them to make sure that they accurately represent Trinitarian beliefs. Threads which misrepresent the beliefs of others are more of a reflection of the ignorance of their users, than they are a valid criticism of the beliefs of others. As you can see the first two items that I ask are related to posting guidelines, the last on is one that you should be willing to do voluntarily. If you do not wish to follow the above points, then please do not post illustrations my threads. You may however start your own threads, and do what you wish within posting guidelines.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Herk said to me:

    What an admission this is that you share the Trinitarian sentiment that Jesus was wrong about the Jews, and yet you claim he was God!

    Herk is now accusing me of calling Jesus a liar!

    Herk, I humbly request that you either post evidence of me calling Jesus a liar, or you stop accusing me falsely.

    Where did I ever say that Jesus was wrong about ANYTHING?

    Jesus cannot be wrong and He cannot lie, though every human certainly does.

    Jesus simply said "salvation originates with the Jews". What does that have to do with the Trinity?

    The New Testament say the following about THE JEWS:

    John 1:11: He [Jesus] came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.

    Luke 19:14: But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, "We will not have this [man] to reign over us."

    Acts 7: 51-60: "You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it." When they heard these things they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed at him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and said, "Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!" Then they cried out with a loud voice, stopped their ears, and ran at him with one accord; and they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul. And they stoned Stephen as he was calling on God and saying, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Then he knelt down and cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not charge them with this sin." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

    Acts 3: 13-17: The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified His Servant Jesus, whom you delivered up and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let Him go. But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. "Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers.

    1st Corinthians 1:23: But we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling-block, and to the Greeks foolishness

    1st Thessalonians 2: 14-16: For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

    So, as you can clearly see, the Scriptures show that the vast majority of Jews rejected, hated, and denied Jesus as being the Messiah and the Son of God, and the vast majority still do today.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Also, Herk claims that none of the Jews EVER believed in Jesus as God. What does the Bible say?

    Isaiah believed that Jesus was God Almighty (Yahweh):

    Isaiah 9:6: For to us a Child is born, to us a Son is given; And the Government will be upon His shoulder. And His Name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    And in the very next Chapter, Isaiah says that The Mighty God is Yahweh:

    Isaiah 10: 20-21: And it shall come to pass in that day That the remnant of Israel, And such as have escaped of the house of Jacob, Will never again depend on him who defeated them, But will depend on the LORD [Yahweh], the Holy One of Israel, in truth. The remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, To the Mighty God.

    Isaiah 6:1-5: I n the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the temple. Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one cried to another and said: " Holy, holy, holy is the L ORD [Yahweh] of hosts; The whole earth is full of His glory!" And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke. So I said: " Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; For my eyes have seen the King, The L ORD [Yahweh] of hosts."

    The Apostle John said that Isaiah saw JESUS' GLORY in Isaiah Chapter 6!

    John 12:41: Isaiah said these things when he saw His [Christ's] glory, and spoke about Him [Christ].

    Also, notice that Jesus Himself said that NO HUMAN (except Jesus) in history has EVER seen The Father:

    John 6:46: Not that any man has seen the Father, except He that is of God, He has seen the Father.

    Therefore, since Isaiah saw Yahweh God, and no human has seen The Father, it was YAHWEH THE SON that Isaiah saw, just as John said at John 12:41!

    Jeremiah believed that Jesus was YAHWEH:

    Jeremiah 23:6: In His days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this [is] His Name by which He shall be called, THE LORD [YAHWEH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Moses believed that Jesus was YAHWEH, God Almighty:

    Exodus 3: 2-17: And the Angel of the L ORD [Yahweh] appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, "I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn." So when the L ORD [Yahweh] saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, "Moses, Moses!" And he said, "Here I am." Then He said, "Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground." Moreover He said, "I am the God of your father--the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. And the L ORD [Yahweh] said: "I have surely seen the oppression of My people who are in Egypt, and have heard their cry because of their taskmasters, for I know their sorrows. So I have come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up from that land to a good and large land, to a land flowing with milk and honey, to the place of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites. Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel has come to Me, and I have also seen the oppression with which the Egyptians oppress them. Come now, therefore, and I will send you to Pharaoh that you may bring My people, the children of Israel, out of Egypt." But Moses said to God, "Who am I that I should go to Pharaoh, and that I should bring the children of Israel out of Egypt?" So He said, "I will certainly be with you. And this shall be a sign to you that I have sent you: When you have brought the people out of Egypt, you shall serve God on this mountain." Then Moses said to God, "Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?" And God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And He said, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" Moreover God said to Moses, "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'The L ORD [Yahweh] God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.' Go and gather the elders of Israel together, and say to them, 'The LORD [Yahweh] God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared to me, saying, "I have surely visited you and seen what is done to you in Egypt; and I have said I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt to the land of the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, to a land flowing with milk and honey."'

    The Angel of Yahweh was also Yahweh!

    Abraham believed that Jesus was YAHWEH, God Almighty:

    Genesis 16:7-14: Now the Angel of the LORD [Yahweh] found her by a spring of water in the wilderness, by the spring on the way to Shur. And He said, "Hagar, Sarai's maid, where have you come from, and where are you going?" She said, "I am fleeing from the presence of my mistress Sarai." The Angel of the L ORD [Yahweh] said to her, "Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand." Then the Angel of the LORD [Yahweh] said to her, "I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude." And the Angel of the LORD [Yahweh] said to her: " Behold, you are with child, And you shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, Because the L ORD [Yahweh] has heard your affliction. He shall be a wild man; His hand shall be against every man, And every man's hand against him. And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren." Then she called the name of the LORD [Yahweh] who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, "Have I also here seen Him who sees me?" Therefore the well was called Beer Lahai Roi; observe, it is between Kadesh and Bered.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Micah believed that Jesus was the Eternal God:

    Micah 5:2: " But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Though you are little among the thousands of Judah, Yet out of you shall come forth to Me The One to be Ruler in Israel, Whose goings forth are from of old, From everlasting."

    Job believed that Jesus was God:

    Job 19:25-27: For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God, Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!

    The Writers of the Psalms believed that Jesus was God:Psalm 45:6-7: Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your Kingdom. You love righteousness and hate wickedness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.

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