PLEASE HELP! Assist in 1914 Rebuttal...

by Jared 63 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • City Fan
    City Fan

    Just for scholar who yet again says:

    The very fact that critics of 607 cannot determine the calender year for the fall of Jerusalem and cannot agree as to chronology and nature of the seventy years renders such views as foolish.

    So, why can scholars not agree whether Jerusalem fell in 587 BC or 586 BC? I'm not going to go into any astronomical texts that show how to date these events, but just discuss why we cannot be certain of the year of Jerusalem's fall.

    First, how do we work out when Nebuchadnezzar ascended to the Babylonian throne? According to Berossus it was ?on the first day of Elul (6/7 September 605 BC), he (Nebuchadnezzar) sat on the royal throne. (Wiseman 1985 pp.18-19 see also The Cambridge Ancient History III part 2 p231 also BM21946). Texts are dated to his reign at Sippar on 24th September and at Babylon 6 days earlier.

    So here's a quick table to list various regnal years of Nebuchadnezzar in the Babylonian calendar:

    Regnal year: Babylonian date: Equivalent Julian date:

    Ascension 1 Elul (-293) ? 30 Addaru (-293) 06 Sept 605 BC ? 31 March 604 BC
    Year 1 1 Nisanu (-292) ? 29 Addaru (-292) 01 April 604 BC ? 20 March 603 BC
    Year 2 1 Nisanu (-291) ? 29 Addaru (-291) 21 March 603 BC ? 08 April 602 BC
    Year 3 1 Nisanu (-290) ? 30 Addaru (-290) 09 April 602 BC ? 28 March 601 BC
    Year 4 1 Nisanu (-289) ? 30 Addaru (-289) 29 March 601 BC ? 17 March 600 BC
    Year 5 1 Nisanu (-288) ? 29 Addaru (-288) 18 March 600 BC ? 04 April 599 BC
    Year 6 1 Nisanu (-287) ? 29 Addaru (-287) 05 April 599 BC ? 24 March 598 BC
    Year 7 1 Nisanu (-286) ? 29 Addaru (-286) 25 March 598 BC ? 11 April 597 BC
    Year 8 1 Nisanu (-285) ? 30 Addaru (-285) 12 April 597 BC ? 01 April 596 BC
    Year 9 1 Nisanu (-284) ? 30 Addaru (-284) 02 April 596 BC ? 20 April 595 BC
    Year 17 1 Nisanu (-276) ? 29 Addaru II (-276) 03 April 588 BC ? 21 April 587 BC
    Year 18 1 Nisanu (-275) ? 29 Addaru (-275) 22 April 587 BC ? 11 April 586 BC
    Year 19 1 Nisanu (-274) ? 30 Addaru (-274) 12 April 586 BC ? 31 March 585 BC

    The Babylonian Chronicle says he captured Jerusalem on 2nd Adarru in his seventh year:

    Using only the Babylonian calendar, Nebuchadrezzar?s 7th year was 1 Nisanu (-286) ? 29 Addaru (-286) or 25 March 598 BC ? 11 April 597 BC.

    2nd Addaru -286 = 15/16th March 597 BCE.

    (Note the Babylonian day started just after sundown so 2nd Addaru started after sunset 15th March 597 BC and ended just before sunset 16th March 597 BC.)

    Calculation of the date of the destruction of Jerusalem:

    We only have two bible passages that show the date of the fall of Jerusalem, 2 Kings 25:8 and Jeremiah 52:12. These show it to be between 7th of Ab and 10th Ab in Nebuchadnezzar?s 19th year.

    In the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month -- which was the nineteenth year of King Nebuchadrez'zar, king of Babylon (2 Kings 25:8).
    [This is Nebuchadrezzar?s 18th year in ascension year reckoning.]

    In the fifth month, on the tenth day of the month -- which was the nineteenth year of King Nebuchadrez'zar, king of Babylon -- Nebu'zarad'an the captain of the bodyguard who served the king of Babylon, entered Jerusalem. (Jer 52:12)

    There is much evidence to show the Jews used a non-ascension year dating system. Jeremiah 25:1 and 46:2 show the battle of Carchemish occurred ?in the fourth year of Jehoiakim? and this was ?the first year of Nebuchadnezzar?. But the Babylonian Chronicle 5 (BM 21946) says this battle took place in Nebuchadnezzar?s ascension year (see Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles ? A.K.Grayson p98 Chronicle 5 line 12)

    Also Jeremiah 52:12 puts the destruction in Nebuchadnezzar?s nineteenth year while Jeremiah 52:29 puts this event in Nebuchadnezzar?s eighteenth year. The eighteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar using the Babylonian ascension year system would be the same as the nineteenth year using the Jewish non-ascension year system. This also seems to suggest that Jeremiah 52:28-32 was added to the passage from Babylonian records at a later date, Jeremiah chapter 52 being word for word the same as 2 Kings 24:18 ? 25:30, except for verses 28-32.

    So we use 7th (or 10th) Abu in Nebuchadnezzar?s 18th year (ascension system) to date the fall of Jerusalem.

    We have another problem though in that although the Babylonians and the Jews both numbered their months from Nisan, the Babylonian New Year began in Nisan but the Jewish New Year began in Tishri. Because the bible is unclear as to which calendar is being used, we end up with two dates:

    1. Using the Babylonian Nisanu-Nisanu new year calendar:

    Nebuchadnezzar?s 18th regnal year was 1 Nisanu 587 BC ? 29 Addaru 586 BC or 23 April 587 BC ? 12 April 586 BC.

    07th Ab 587 BC = 25th August 587 BCE.

    2. Using the Hebrew Tishri-Tishri new year calendar:

    Nebuchadnezzar?s 18th regnal year was 1 Tishri 587 BC ? 30 Elul 586 BC or 18 October 587 BC ? 06 October 586 BC.

    07th Ab 586 BC = 14th August 586 BCE.

    (see also The Cambridge Ancient History III part 2 p. 234)

    So hopefully you can see that the uncertainty as to the year, either 586 or 587, is simply becuase the bible is unclear as to which calendar to use.

    CF.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    may you have peace!

    And may you know that...the WTBTS teaching of the "millenial rule" of Christ... is FALSE. It is a LIE. My Lord is NOT limited to a rulership of a mere 1,000 years. HIS rule... is forever? an "indefinitely lasting" rulership.

    It is those who CO-rule with him... the 144,000 from "among the sons of Israel," AND "a great crowd from EVERY nation, tribe, tongue and people, which "crowd" NO man is able to number"... who are limited to 1,000 years of rulership.

    Revelation 20:4

    Daniel 2:44

    Daniel 7:14

    Isaiah 9:7

    Luke 1:33

    Psalm 45:6 (please see Hebrew interlinear or NWT Ref. Bible footnote)

    Revelation 11:15

    Romans 11:13, 25

    Revelation 5:9, 10

    Again, I bid you peace.

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • scholar
    scholar

    City Fan

    The Society does not have this problem of calendrical uncertainty using the same biblical data as you describe because the calendrical year for the fall of Jerusalem is determined with certainty as 607.So, there must be a flaw in the methodology that scholars pursue because they all assume a different calendrical year. Despite the uncertainties as to which reckoning is used each scholar has decided his own methodology and date. Jonsson discusses this problem in pages 293-4 but rather than saying that Jerusalem fell in 586-7 or 586/587 he says it must be 587. Other scholars such as Thiele says it must be 586 so any ambiguity is not disclosed to the reader.

    I believe that this discrepancy is not a problem of what calender should be used or type of reign but rather it is a methoological problem and the scholars have been caught out in trying to harmonize the secular data with the biblical data. The Society in its wisdom and with the help of Holy Spirit has given primacy to the biblical data over and above the secular and if there is a conflict then let God be true and every man a liar.

    scholar

    BA MA Studies in Religion

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    And thus we know with certainty that the earth is flat and the sun is born new each morning in the east.

  • Satanus
  • A Paduan
    A Paduan
    The other secular or profane dates are useless for Christians as such dates do not produce faith.

    No doubt people are thankful to know that they aren't subjected to "faith-producing dates" - standard reasoning for turning jws away at the door.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    and yet, neither are able to help you see the TRUTH of who "the Society" REALLY is, as depicted by my Lord in at Matthew 23:1-39 and John 10:7-13... and who they really are NOT... as STATED by my Lord at John 14:6.

    For the "Society"... even goes so far as to call itself "the truth." Yet, I say to you, dear Scholar... that my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, the Son and Christ of the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH... of Armies (Psalm 68:4)... is the Truth. There is no other.

    You cannot get to God by going through them. You cannot know God by knowing them. You cannot be obedient to God by being obedient to them. God's leader, Christ, cannot be your leader... if they lead you. But I say to you: the "Society" is a group set up by FALSE "christs" ("anointed")... and FALSE "prophets"... run by FALSE "christs"... and FALSE "prophets"... adhered to and followed by those who "are loving it."

    Matthew 24:24; Isaiah 5:30, 31

    Indeed, they are just as they very own words against others describe them:

    "A bigoted class of men who have systematically endeavored to prevent the people from understanding the Bible and to throttle ALL Bible teaching... unless it comes through them." - Proclaimers Book, Page 70, Paragraph 1

    Talk about your HYPOCRITES! And we were warned by the Christ himself to BEWARE the "leaven" of the Pharisees... which is HYPOCRISY!

    But all the academic degrees in the WORLD cannot help you see and understand this, for there is only ONE who can open you eyes, who can grant you "eyesalve" so as to see... and excavate ears for you so that you can hear. Only One. And they... are not him... nor do they represent him. For while they call themselves "the VISIBLE representation of the Lord on earth," I say to YOU... that the LAST "visible" representation... was the temple at Jerusalem, which temple... was utterly destroyed.

    So that there is longer ANY "visible" representation on earth at ALL... and thus, we must walk NOT by sight... but by FAITH. These, however, have created a "golden calf," the "Society" and "WTBTS," to which they direct you to LOOK... while waiting for the Mediator to return. What was the result, however, when Israel did the SAME THING... at Sinai... when, after having grown weary in waiting for Moses to return, they CONSTRUCTED A GOLDEN CALF... and began to call IT "JAH." Why?! Because those of the FLESH... cannot worship... what they cannot SEE! They walk by SIGHT... and NOT by FAITH!

    These have also "shut up the kingdom of the heavens," even before YOU... you who apparently consider yourself "wise" by means of your academic accomplishments... because they neither lead you to the WAY into the kingdom... nor do they permit you enter by means of that One's command:

    "UNLESS you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood... you have NO life within yourselves."

    John 6:51, 53

    All the academic accomplishments of the world cannot reveal these truths to you, dear Scholar... for the wisdom of the WORLD... cannot get to know these things... as they are "foolishness" to those who are "discreet,"... in their own eyes.

    I exhort you, then, to see yourself as you truly are... blind... and buy "eyesalve" from the One who sells it... that YOUR eyes might be opened and sight be granted... to you.

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ, CMH-COS and soon to be first year law student... but so what? God's "things"... can only be revealed to us BY God... through Christ. For interpretation belongs NOT to earthling man... but to God.

  • toreador
    toreador

    Awesome rebuttal AGuest.

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    AGuest my good friend,

    : A slave of Christ,

    Quit being a "slave." Life is tough enough without having to be anybody's "slave."

    Besides that, Christ or even God doesn't need any "slaves." They're doing just fine. They have everything the need: they're well fed, have a good army of angels to do their bidding. They don't pay any taxes. They never get sick and live forever and their lifestyle is not affected whether they have human "slaves," or not.

    On the otherhand, humans like you and I have to live our short lives with TONS of problems.

    I for one, will not add the extra burden in my life of being a "slave" to some supernatural being who doesn't even have the common decency to call me on the phone once in a while. I have enough burdens as it is and those in that august heavenly body who judge us for all eternity because some of us rejected being their "slaves" despite the difficulties THEY created for us during our short stay in life, have the nerve to ask more of us than just to live, suffer and die as we all do. Screw them.

    Fooeey on that crap! I want nothing to do with vindictive and evil Gods who use humans as pawns and demand love and worship in return for misery on earth and "some" future reward. Where I come from, we call that "extortion" or "blackmail." Either way, it's ugly and BibleGod is UGLY.

    Farkel

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    "scholar":

    The Society in its wisdom and with the help of Holy Spirit has given primacy to the biblical data over and above the secular and if there is a conflict then let God be true and every man a liar.

    Then why did the WTS for decades put so much emphasis on 606 BC, and then suddenly change it to 607 BC? Did the Holy Spirit lie to them? Did they lie to us? Did they lie to themselves?

    Ohhhhhh, I remember...they forgot the year 0. So much for the certainty of divine insites.

    As Russell said: "True light is in harmony with all previous light." (Quote source available at your request).

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