Gospel of John - Why no Emblems, no Bread and Wine?

by Greenpalmtreestillmine 42 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Greenpalmtreestillmine
    Greenpalmtreestillmine

    Since today is the Memorial I thought it would be a good time to ask this quesion: Why is it that the Gospel of John does not include the passing of the bread and wine representing Jesus' blood and flesh?

    Of all the Gospels, John's goes into the greatest detail of Jesus' last evening with his disciples yet he omits the passing of the covenant emblems. And of all the Gospels you would think John's would include that since his is filled with more symbolic and mystery material than the rest. Yet he leaves out the most treasured symbolism of all, the ceremony of the bread and wine.

    I would be very interested in hearing some opinions on this.

    Sabrina

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    John's account, I believe, was the last written and generally he fills in the "missing details" and provides some critical chronology that the others do not.

    For instance, from John we learn that Judas left just before 9 pm for the betrayal. That he was taken to the Sanhedrin right at sunrise and that the first trial before Pilate was just before Noon (but-early) and that his second trial was around Noon on the day before "preparation for passover" sabbath of the 21st, thus Wednesday, Nisan 19th. His ommission of the details of the covenant which was covered in the other gospels is thus understandable.

    John of course, wrote Revelation and per his own last words in John suggested that he would be among some who would "not die" until the Messiah returned. The Apostle Paul also included himself in this group (i.e. one group would die and have to be resurrected at the second coming, but a small group of Jews, likely some from each of the 12 tribes of Israel to preserve that part of the prophecy were not to die but live on through the ages 1900 years until the Messiah arrived. Paul and John would have been two of them.) Hard to believe, but if that was the case then John likely was supplementing along with Paul on the final version of the NT, a collection of works primarily by John and Paul. He must have thought a fourth rendition of the passing of the bread and wine was not necessary for his version.

    JC

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Paul was the first to introduce a eucharist meal into the new cult. By his own admission (1 Cor 11:23)it was not a tradition he heard from other Christians, he was the first to incorporate the pagan (most likely Mithraism being the source as Tarsus was a center for the cult) ritual meal into story by claiming to have gotten special revelation from Christ. Even then there is no reason to believe he was attempting to suggest that his meal 'vision' was literal. Luke 22:19-20 are late additions to the text. They were obviously added to Luke by a mid second century protoOrthox Christian to attempt to literalize Paul's vision. The early gospel writers had never heard of a eucharist meal, and would have recognized it to be a pagan mystery cult sacrament.

  • True North
    True North

    peacefulpete,

    Luke 22:19-20 are late additions to the text.

    How is that known to be true?

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I have a slightly different opinion. I believe the interpretation of the bread and wine that Paul gives in 1 Corinthians and the synoptics (derived from Mithraism, focusing on the partaking of the dying-rising god) is Paul's own, or that of his group, but that the eucharist itself is a continuation of similar meals in Pharisaic Judaism, where benedictions are also given over the bread and wine. I believe the Didache preserves a pre-Pauline version of the benedictions which were very far removed from the "this is my body" formula, and instead likened the bread to the gospel message being spread and the church being gathered together in the kingdom. This fits well with other metaphors in the sapiential and narrative tradition (cf. Mark 2:25-26, 4:14-20, 6:30-44; Matthew 4:4). Some of the gnostic gospels (cf. the Gospel of Mary) place the Great Commission between the warning of false Christs and Jesus' departure/death, which suggests an earlier tradition where the Last Supper was the scene of the Great Commission and the bread was given to the disciples as a symbol of the gospel teaching being entrusted to them. The older tradition of the Last Supper could have thus been one that converted the traditional Jewish benedictions of the bread and wine (i.e. "Blessed be you who has created the fruit of the vine") into one that thanked God for the bread of the knowledge and life that he is entrusting to his followers (cf. the Didache), and the vine of the Kingdom which (as in the Parable of the Wicked Tenants) is given to his disciples as their inheritance (cf. Mark 12:1-12; Matthew 21:33-46; Luke 20:9-19; Gospel of Thomas 65). This fits well with the Didache, the metaphors in the synoptic gospel tradition, and conceptually stands closer to traditional Jewish benedictions than the "this is my body" formula of Paul; note how this formula has completely eclipsed the "giving thanks" part, which is only told in passing, while the Didache's eucharist prayers are entirely concerned with how to give thanks. So even in Paul and the gospels (as well as the name "Eucharist" itself), there is a hint of the benedictions in the practice -- tho they are glossed over entirely.

  • Oroborus21
    Oroborus21

    Greetings!

    I thought this is an interesting topic.

    You can accept the traditional view that the Apostle John wrote the Gospel of John and so go into all sorts of speculation as to why it differs from the Synoptic Gospels (Mark, Matthew, Luke)

    OR

    You can recognize that the Gospels (and really the Bible entirely) was not composed and compiled in the homely fashion that the Society/Organization and even other Christian churches/relgions portray, namely that a sole (or in some case a few) penmen were sitting peacefully at their desks labouring under Divine Inspiration.

    The real story of the Bible is that it has ALWAYS been a product of politics and dispute, of factions consisting of winners and losers, of rival priestly houses and sects and ultimately of competing "truths." Mostly, we know only the "winners" the proto-orthodox view that came to be mainstream Christian belief and essentially Christianity as we know it. There is in fact, only one certainty when it comes to the Gospels (and the Bible Canon) no one, except possibly their own authors, considered them to be the "last word" on Jesus' teachings and deeds. (The disputes about what writings should be considered sacred, authoritative and eventually canonical continued for centuries and in some respects are still not setlled.)

    None of the original copies of any of the books of the New Testament (Christian Greek scriptures) exists (not too mention the original writings themselves of course.) The earliest complete text copies date only the the fourth century C.E. We have fragmentary copies of some New Testament writings dating to the 3rd Century and earlier. The earliest surviving copy of any New Testament book is a credit card sized fragment from the Gospel of John that dates to 125 CE (+or- 25 years). Additionally, by 150 C.E. the Gospel of John begins to be cited by other writers and is generally known.

    Most scholars feel that John was written about 100 C.E. as a reaction to the various "heresies" that were wrestling for dominance at that time among Christians. Obviously this date makes the traditional assignment of authorship to the Apostle John problematic but not outside the realm of possibility. It seems evident that the celebration of the Last Supper or Eucharist was not uncommon by that time and was probably known to John.

    Interestingly, the Didache, or "The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles to the Nations" composed about 100 CE describes the celebration of the Eucharist and gives the liturgy in reverse order of what is commonly used today, namely it describes the prayers over first the cup of wine and then of the bread. Therefore, we can infer that at least among some Christian sects/congregations/groups celebrating the Eucharist/Last Supper was common and part of their faith.

    As I stated most scholars believe that the Gospel of John was not written by the Apostle but only assigned authorship to him for the sake of gaining support for its beliefs and particular version of Christianity. In reading the Gospel it is self-evident that unlike the Synoptic Gospels (acknowledged to have been composed signifcantly earlier), the Gospel of John concentrates on Jesus' work in Jerusalem. Jesus' discourses tend to be long and argumentative as woudl suit a writer in disputing priests, theologians and "heretics" of a contrary view. Also, Jesus appears far less like a parochial Jewish prophet and far more like the universal "Son of God."

    Most likely, John was composed by a secretary of the Apostle or close associate. Perhaps, he did have much of the information relayed to him by the Apostle but it also appears that the author was reacting to the political situation within the Church. The fact that the writer many times stresses the favoured position of the source of the information by referring to John, or the Beloved Disciple, etc. suggests an attempt to assert the authority to speak with particular weight about Jesus, essentially, saying that these are the words of not just any disciple but the one that Jesus especailly loved.

    Thus to finally answer the question you raise in your post, it appears that in specifying the liturgy to be followed in the Eucharist or celebration of the Memorial/Last Supper, the author of John was attempting to clarify and to set out a standard procedure in the face of what may have been for other Christian sects a celebration that took place in various forms. WE have already seen how the Didache set forth a different order than is found in John, so likely other Christian groups in Alexandria, Elephantine and others such areas likely had their own customs.

    -Eduardo

    Aside to JCanon:

    Tradition assigns authorship of the fourth gospel, the three epistles of John and Revelation to the same person, namely John the apostle, that is, John son of Zebedee. (In the Catholic bible Revelation is accordingly entitled "The Apocalypse of St. John the Apostle.") The language of Revelation, while Greek, is filled with Semitic word order and idioms, and is rich in Old Testament allusion which supports the idea of a Palestinian Jew, John the Apostle, who thought in Hebrew or Aramaic and whose Greek was learned later in life.

    However, the author of Revelation does not positively state that he is the Apostle John or even the "Beloved Disciple" and there is an enormous difference in style, vocabulary, and thought between the fourth gospel and Revelation. Thus the KJVersion calls Revelation "The Revelation of St. John the Divine" while the Revised Standard Version is even more cautious and calls it "The Revelation to John" while the NWT says similarly "A Revelation to John." MY own opinion is that Revelation was probably written by the Apostle John but that the Gospel of John being written a few years after his death was only ascribed to the apostle for the sake of bolstering the "proto-orthodox" version of Christianity, although it may have been written by a personal secretary or close associate of the Apostle.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    Thus to finally answer the question you raise in your post, it appears that in specifying the liturgy to be followed in the Eucharist or celebration of the Memorial/Last Supper, the author of John was attempting to clarify and to set out a standard procedure in the face of what may have been for other Christian sects a celebration that took place in various forms. WE have already seen how the Didache set forth a different order than is found in John, so likely other Christian groups in Alexandria, Elephantine and others such areas likely had their own customs.

    There is NO Eucharist narrrative in GJohn. The question was "why?".

    In the narrative structure of GJohn the washing of the disciples' feet takes the place of the Eucharist (chapter 13). The Eucharistic allusions in 6:52-58 are obviously late and orthodox additions (as well as the recurring reference to "resurrection in the last day", v. 39 etc.).

    This doesn't mean the early Johannine community had no Eucharistic practice, but perhaps it was not as central to them as it was in other churches -- and was differently interpreted. In the discourse of the "bread from heaven" in chapter 6, leaving aside the Eucharistic later addition, Jesus is the bread inasmuch as he is (the Revealer of) divine Wisdom (cf. Sirach 24:19ff), or Word. The spiritual relationship with Him, or knowledge (gnosis), is viewed as the ultimate reality -- of which everything else is only a secondary and susbstitutible (??) sign.

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Hello Leolaia,

    Your comments are interesting as always. But the eating of Christ's body, the concept of that, is associated with the MANNA that came down from Heaven.

    John 6:31 "Our forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness, just as it is wreitten, 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat......For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world. Jesus said to them: "I am the bread of life."

    So the concept of eating bread and associating that with life and Christ in Christian dogma is associated with the manna in the wilderness which comes down from heaven. Thus I'm not sure how I follow Paul inventing the Eucharist of late inception. ???

    Would you care to comment on how the manna connection with Christ as "bread from heaven" figures in all of this?

    Thanks.

    JC

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Hi Oroborus: Interesting take on the gospel history: But this might not be precisely true...

    None of the original copies of any of the books of the New Testament (Christian Greek scriptures) exists (not too mention the original writings themselves of course.) The earliest complete text copies date only the the fourth century C.E. We have fragmentary copies of some New Testament writings dating to the 3rd Century and earlier.

    Have you read "The DaVinci Code" by Dan Brown? It's very interesting. Part of this tale suggests that Mary Magdalene was married to Jesus and the "Holy Grail", SANG real, a cryptic reference to Royal Blood was part of the search of the Templars. But along with trying to find Mary and her descendants was this rather huge amount of ancient records thought to be proof that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene and all that. The crux of the book related to two opposing factions within the church, one wanting to finally expose these writings and another who wanted to suppress and destroy them, and there was this race to see who got there first. Good book! A quick read!

    At any rate, it was a little too "mysteries" mysterious not to note some interesting Priori of Sion cryptic references by DaVincin, particularly of the Last Supper. The "Holy Grail" was said to really be a challice that was given to John by Jesus and which caught some of the blood of Jesus when he was on the cross, etc. But DaVincin displayed John in an extremely effeminate manner, suggesting that this was really Mary Magdalene.

    But that's where the Bible and Christian myth combine and relates to whether or not extant copies of the original gospels are still in existence. How so? Because it makes more sense that the Templars perhaps did discover an incredible secret and that is that John, who has the same "sang real" (holy blood) of Jesus had not died as Jesus promised he wouldn't and thus he was among many that Jesus had chosen to live down to our day without dying. But of course, they didn't simply live through the ages. Part of the reason for having some survive was to reconstitute the 10 tribes of Israel to fulfill some prophecy (i.e. some of each tribe would remarry during the last generation and reestablish some official members of the 12 tribs), but would also, of course, preserve what they thought would be some important documents. Perhaps some of the original records establishing the lineage of Jesus, of course, as well as their own personal lineages. This might be important later on. The records were said to be in several trunks when they were last seen.

    But having said that (and I don't want you to accept this as fact, only theory), it would seem if there were going to be some surviving, or even not, that Christ would have found a way to have a sub-secret cult who would preserve some of these original documents, which at a given time in the future, would be revealed. And it's THESE records the Church is after, these REAL records as well as John himself whom they want to find and kill.

    Now the cult I'm in (a JW anointed cult called the "JIOR") believe the Bible and believe these people survived and thus would hold out for some of these original documents, which would challenge some of the presumptions being touted now.

    So, it's possible that some of these documents were kept SECRET to protect them, until a critical time when they would resurface to confirm what the truth really is.

    Anyway, I think this search for the Holy Grail which they claim is a search for Mary Magdalene is really a search for John and whatever records he has.

    No, I haven't seen John. Actually, probably I have but holy spirit didn't identify him, likely because he's too critical and I didn't need to know. I've seen Paul (the original surviving) and Peter and Daniel (both resurrected) though.

    At any rate, it would appear that protecting the fundamental scriptures was part of the shepherding set up by these survivors, Paul and John being the primary ones, until the Bible was sufficiently concise to be handed down to us. And perhaps because there is such strong invention of myths about the NT now surfacing and loud claims about revisions that might influence some, Christ saw fit to preserve some of those original writings in secret.

    Who knows? Maybe all of a sudden there will be a discovery of another set of "Dead Sea Scrolls" someplace and they'll be some of the original writings. To have them appear before now certainly is not as good as having them appear after it's clear how much dismissal is currently going on of the NT, something obviously I would not be influenced by if I think Paul and John actually survived from the 1st Century until now.

    But then again, it makes far more since the legend of the Templars in search of the "Holy Grail" would be fostered by the reality of John surviving with these records than for them to make up a story like Jesus being Married to Mary Magdalene which is a joke! Jesus was in love with John....hello? Jesus, John and Paul were "eunuchs"! That's what "Nazarene" means.

    Jesus was "in love with" John...not Mary Magdalene, if you get my drift....

    JC

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost
    In reading the Gospel it is self-evident that unlike the Synoptic Gospels (acknowledged to have been composed signifcantly earlier), the Gospel of John concentrates on Jesus' work in Jerusalem. Jesus' discourses tend to be long and argumentative as woudl suit a writer in disputing priests, theologians and "heretics" of a contrary view. Also, Jesus appears far less like a parochial Jewish prophet and far more like the universal "Son of God."

    I agree with that.

    I would think you'd have to consider why each gospel was written, and for whom? That's certainly the case with the synoptic gospels. Should we expect that all gospels are a historical record? If so, then they'd all be the same? Not much point to that.

    By the time John wrote his gospel, the other gospels' impact would have already have been felt. Why would John repeat something that was not essential to his purpose in writing?

    So I find nothing sinister in the lack of detail of the Lord's Supper in John's gospel. Just be glad we have got enough for faith.

    Cheers, Ozzie

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