I have noticed that most Newbies still hang on to a lot of JW beliefs. Once you climb the 'postate' ladder and become Jedi Master or better, you talk much differently,
DO YOU BELIEVE ARMAGEDDON WILL EVER COME?
by Mary 49 Replies latest jw friends
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Brownboy
Brownboy, at what point will you concede defeat of your worldview? At sixy? eighty? If you say NEVER, your bold statement cannot be effectively challenged, since you could conceivably go to your deathbed, believing. On the other hand, if you have a date in mind, I will offer a challenge. I will write you a letter, stamped and sealed, to be delivered on your Armageddon day. You may do the same.
I would also be interested in any answer you may have to my questions,
- How does believeing in Armageddon help us to be better human beings?
- Does Armageddon-faith help us to look out for the good in people?
- Do we strive to improve the lives of the people around us, when we believe that Armageddon is just around the corner?
Jgnat,
I have had the pleasure of chatting with you on occasion. I know that you have a great heart, and feel that you are willing to help people whenever the opportunity presents itself. And I have to say that my answer would be "NEVER" because that is what I believe. I can't say that I know when Harmageddon will occur because that would contradict what the bible teaches. If you care to, you can send me a letter with the date of March, 2005 as a turning point of world events. This is based upon a 42 month period of time from the September 11th attack. I have already elaborated much on this subect in my "Wild Beast" thread, therefore I will not do so here. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/67918/4.ashx
As far as what the belief in Harmageddon does, it just serves as a warning to people in order to allow those that choose to serve God an opportunity to prove their faithfulness to Him. I stand in behalf of my God when I make these postings, as He is deserving in all His righteousness, and leave it up to everyone else to make their own decision.
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But Jehovah is in truth God. He is the living God and the King to time indefinite. Because of his indignation the earth will rock, and no nations will hold up under his denunciation. 11 This is what you men will say to them: "The gods that did not make the very heavens and the earth are the ones who will perish from the earth and from under these heavens." 12 He is the Maker of the earth by his power, the One firmly establishing the productive land by his wisdom, and the One who by his understanding stretched out the heavens. 13 At voice there is a giving by him of a turmoil of waters in the heavens, and he causes vapors to ascend from the extremity of the earth. He has made even sluices for the rain, and he brings forth the wind from his storehouses. (Jeremiah 10:10,13)29
"?Why do you people keep contending against me? Why have you transgressed, all of you, against me?? is the utterance of Jehovah. 30 To no effect I have struck your sons. No discipline did they take. your sword has devoured your prophets, like a lion that is causing ruin. 31 O generation, see for yourselves the word of Jehovah."Have I become a mere wilderness to Israel or a land of intense darkness? Why is it that these, my people, have said, ?We have roamed. We shall come to you no more?? 32 Can a virgin forget her ornaments, a bride her breastbands? And yet my own people?they have forgotten me days without number. (Jeremiah 2:29-32.I will never forget to whom I am owing. We all have the same choice, and this choice will be that of life or death, regardless of whether Harmageddon comes next year, or after I am layed to rest...............
Brownboy
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jgnat
Well, I guess I should be satisifed with small favours. At least you recognize my good heart, even if you only answered my first question. By answering NEVER, you can remain secure in your worldview. I do hope also, if you recognize that people like me exist, that people can follow God WITHOUT Armageddon-faith. Proving loyalty to God by fiercly holding on to belief in the END?
Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he that does the will of my Father who is in the heavens. (Mat 7:21 Darby)
Now when John heard in the prison the works of the Christ, he sent by his disciples and said unto him, Art thou he that cometh, or look we for another? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and tell John the things which ye hear and see: the blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good tidings preached to them. And blessed is he, whosoever shall find no occasion of stumbling in me. (Matthew 11:2-6 ASV)
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Brownboy
Jgnat,
I guess I thought that I did answer your questions. Most people view Harmageddon as a bad thing. Do you consider it to be bad for justice to be acted out upon wicked people, on behalf of righteous people to be bad? Many people find relief when they learn that a murderer is caught and apprehended. I do not sound out these warnings because I dislike people, or because I hate them. On the contrary, it is because I care about people, and don't wish anyone to perish needlessly. Many blessing come after Jehovah acts upon the wicked. This is a good thing and not something to cause fear or anxiety. However, we do have to go through a period of time where everyone upon the earth is tested. Prove to God that you love Him, and are willing to serve Him. You then have nothing to worry about....................
Brownboy
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jgnat
OK, I will take it more slowly. I did not ask if Armageddon is a good or bad thing, I asked if this belief changed the way you behave towards people in a good or bad way. So let's break it down.
How does believing in Armageddon help us to be better human beings?
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prophecor
I personally have no doubts about the future and Armegeddons fateful approach. I do not believe it to be just around the corner either. Certain things I believe must still take place within the framework of society. They at this time are already in the process of development. The monetary system is sure to change, even as it begins to change now. Anybody ever try and purchase something advertised on the TV or radio, or even the internet for that matter without a credit card. Ever try to pay with a money order only to have them tellyou "we don't accept money orders, but we will accept a check card or a debit card with a master card or visa logo on it." Money is on the way to becoming obsolete, worthless, no longer of any exceeding value. "Electric Money, however is making a big hit with the financial establishments and institutions around the world. They have the capacity to trace dollars via computers, can keep a near perfect watch over the finances of the entire planet. Was not the President of the United States responsible for freezing the accounts of terrorist all across the globe via the use of computers? Its all a part of the handwriting on the Biblical Wall Yall', already in operation. And I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth...it puts under compulsion all persons, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the slaves, that they should give these a mark in their right hand or upon their forehead, and that nobody might buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name...it is a man's number; and its number is six hundred and sixty-six.
Financial institutions in co-operation with governmental authorities as we speak have an incredible ammount of control over the money already, this however is just the begining. I rember just a day or so ago, pulling out an antiquated 1$ food stamp, and thought to myself, boy, this is a relic from a history not so long ago. Even welfare has moved into the mainstream of being more enlightened. We use the debit card in that system as well.
Consider the degree of control thats able to be put in place when to buy and sell "Drugs" no longer becomes profitable for your neighborhood Crack Cocaine Sales Associates, if physical money is no longer a means for acquirering goods, then that same physical money has absolutely no value whatsover. How will the Dopeman be able to purchase his Caddillac Escalade anymore without the government being able to demand of him the proper means of purchase?
Many things I believe have yet to take place, and Armegeddon is real, its merely a matter of time before more of the outworkings come into play.
Habakuk 2:2,3 And Jehovah proceeded to answer..."Write down the vision and set it out plainly on tablets, in order that the one reading aloud from it may do so fluently. for the the appointed time and it keeps panting on to the end, and it will not lie Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it; for it will without fail come true. It will not be late.
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jgnat
Gawd almighty, I give up.
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Brownboy
Jgnat,
There is only one way that I can answer your question: "How does believing in Harmagedon make us better human beings?" In order to believe that it will ever take place, you first have to have a belief in the bible, which is the source of the teaching. By believing that the bible is the inspired word of God, we can then make the decision to follow, and adhere to the teachings as a disciple of Christ. I learned of Harmagedon from the bible and this is not my teaching. Whether I prefer to have it occur, or not, is not a choice that is given to me. It will happen regardless if anyone chooses to believe in it or not. Simply believing that it will occur is a beginning of faith, and will cause people to become better human beings by following the principles outlined in the bible. I hope this answers your question.............
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And they gathered them together to the place that is called in Hebrew Har?Ma·ged´on (Revelations 16:16)Brownboy
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boa
nope, at least not as jws or other 'end-timers' preach. They've been doing that crap virtually from the moment the 'prophecies' have been uttered right up until now.
the initial assumption of 'beliefs' indicates that one tends to believe what one wants to believe not what is 'fact'. 'Facts' imo are simply manipulations of observation and can easily be different to different observers. i.e. one observes the sun 'coming up' in the morning out of the 'east', yet the facts (as reasonably deduced at this point in science) are that the earth is turning on its axis exposing different parts of its surface to sunlight over a 24 hr period and 'east' is a label made by men.
And yes, the above statement fully applies to me - For example, I see evidence that supports both evolution and creation,not any 'proof'. Proof of course, is also in the eye of the observer for cripes sakes.
My assumption for many years is that this universe is a really neat place, but cold as well and would just as soon kill you as save you. You die, and there isn't a shred of proof that you've gone somewhere betterer imo. I don't believe in a personal God as I see not a shred of proof that such a thing exists. Emotional appeal and experiences are swell i'm sure but tell that to people who have been tortured, abused, and killed, that there is a loving God. There may be a creator, and I believe this because my assumption is that this would be nice and also possibly explain complex structures in nature. But the terms 'may' and 'believe' that I use simply don't mean jack - reality may be very different.
Another assumption I have is that life is better, first for me, then my own, then others around me if certain civil behaviours are practiced. Survival then isn't the only focus to life and there is much 'beauty' in life as well.
I prefer to believe in the beauty to be found in people, and 'believe' there are many many out there who seek to do good and act on it (MOST of these are not jws cuz there's not just 6 million, but 6 billion to draw from).
Thus, I prefer to look ahead to a future that is improving in many ways and 'believe' in the inherent goodness and unselfishness people are capable of displaying and don't wish an unlikely God-directed Armageddon on anyone. To put people so casually in classes of 'wicked' and 'righteous' is bald faced arrogance with a lack of natural affection imo hiding behind so-called supporting scriptures. sheesh.
Thank God, this cold-hearted negative world-view of the end and the people in it is something I cast off from the jws.
boa
jeece, mary great thread, yah musta touched a chord there cuz I went off a bit...
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jgnat
Brownboy, logs and slivers.
You have to take care of the greater things - love for one another - or all else is vanity.
Boa, you have some serious deep thoughts there. Bravo.