The Ugly Truth about Jesus 2nd Presence

by Amazing1914 111 Replies latest jw friends

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  Narkissos

  Beyond lexical difficulties, the main problem with the (Second adventist?) WT doctrine of "invisible presence" is that such "presence" was just what the N.T. writers described as their current spiritual (or imaginary) reality: Jesus resurrected, raised and sitting at God's right hand, at the same time being in them and among them through the Spirit. Only, the NT writers (especially Paul) never used the term parousia for this present experience (or belief), rather for the end of it (terminus ad quem): Jesus' ultimate coming, obvious to all and not only to them (in the Pastorals, epiphaneia or "manifestation" replaces parousia with the same meaning).

  This can be summed up by the conclusion of Matthew: "I am with you always, to the end of the age."

  What is totally unbiblical is the idea that from a certain date (1844, 1874, 1914, 1918-9) Jesus would somehow be a little more present than before (but still invisibly), though this would not be the end yet...
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  frankiespeakin

  Actually I think it very important to remember that these gospel accounts are highly imaginative and not very accurate when it come to reporting what actually was said,,and done by jesus or his disciples,,these were stories and embelishments used for church doctrine.
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  frankiespeakin

  I think the gospels are important,, not for historical accuracy but,,more simply because it is an ancient document and therefore sheds much light on myths and how they may have evovled over time.
• 

  hillary_step

  Frankie,

  I think the gospels are important,, not for historical accuracy but,,more simply because it is an ancient document and therefore sheds much light on myths and how they may have evovled over time.

  You may be correct in this, but this would not bear on the original use of the Koine Greek 'parousia' in the C1st. We are trying to ascertain how this word was understood by people in the C1st and whether or not The WTS has deliberately distorted its usage to bolster its borrowed theology. Best regards - HS
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  frankiespeakin

  HS,

  Thanks,, I know that most who are commenting know this,, but some don't and I thought it to be relevent,, because if we approach it from that angle we are freer to come to a more correct conclusion.

  We can thus rule out in trying to think what was on jesus mind when those words were uttered. We don't even have to consider this at all in comming to our conclusion.
• 

  ThiChi

  "...not for historical accuracy"

  Really? Many personages thought not to exist were then proved to exist, as stated in the NT. That must have some historical value then, would you not agree?
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  frankiespeakin

  Thi,

  I won't get into it in this thread but if you started a thread about "How accurate is the Bible historically"

  I think you would find how historically inaccurate the Bible really is.
• 

  barry

  Ive read with some interest the references to 1844 as SDAs still hold to that date but none beleive 1844 was the start of an invisible presence. After the failed date they describe it as the 'Great dissapointement' but still beleive in the visible comming of our Lord when every eye will see him.
  

  SDAs in order to produce a face saving device have invented the 'investigative judgement' a hellish doctrine in which they beleive the world will be judged starting from the dead and at some unknown time the liveing will be judged and then christ will come. Many Adventists have challenged this doctrine early Adventists as well as some today used it to teach that perfection was possible in this life and so it has produced a very perfectionist legalistic religion. In fact it looks more like the council of Trent that protestant reformation theology.

  Many Adventists totally reject the investigative judgement doctrine. Dr Desmond Ford is one such high profile Adventists who has taken issue with this doctrine part of his story is mentioned in Ray Franz book Crisis of conscience. Des still is a member of the church but was defrocked for taking a stand on 1844. Des still speaks to many adventists in seminars and books he has written and he runs an organisation called 'Good news unlimited''.

  Imstead of haveing Appostates we have Fordites taken from Des Fords name we also have a lot of other 'ites' depending on our own preference of theology. Barry
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  got my forty homey?

  Great website, couldn't stop laughing!
• 

  Carmel

  ThiChi, its interesting to note that at Jesus' first "coming" all eyes could see Him, but only a handful "recognized" Him. If He is to "come down from heaven" again (and as the story goes He was born of a woman) would it not be possible to come in the "clouds of doubt and oppression" and have all eyes "see Him" and few recognize His presence. Hence He would be the most "visible of the visible, and the most hidden of the hidden". As you said, present but (to the majority) not recogizable (invisible)?

  carmel