To the Defenders of George Bush and the War in Iraq

by Greenpalmtreestillmine 208 Replies latest social current

• 

  roybatty

  Well believe it or not Roybatty, this isn't about Bush, though it is to a large extent about his performance and capabilities. So if he could cure cancer, I'd be applauding him. You may think of every goddamn thing having to do with politics in the last 12 years thru Bush vs. Clinton lenses, but I don't. As a Texan, my more natural inclination was to be pro-Bush, and as a witness, my more natural inclination was to have contempt for Clinton. And so it was.

  No, I really don't think every goddamn thing is is either Bush vs. Clinton. I guess I'm just tired of the extremes. I'm tired of the Rush Limbaums of the world, I'm tired of the Ted Kennedys of the world. I'm tired that (no offense Simon) a large portion of the world has one set of rules and standards when it comes to people like Bush (conservative Americans) and another standard for their own country (i.e. British troops in N. Ireland, France's failure to stop the slaughter in Rwanda).

  In this world there's right and there's wrong. In the long run, Iraq will become a democracy and the people of that country will be thankful that a handful of world leaders did the right thing.
• 

  Tatiana

  Sure, that's the beauty of living in a free country. But remember, if you are apathetic, don't vote, and don't make an effort to have your voice heard, you won't be taken seriously when you whine about how horrible things supposedly are. Democracy is all about people having a voice in their government. Coming from CA, I am proud that we were able to get rid of a loser governer. If I sat back and just complained about him, but failed to vote or do anything, then I'M the loser. Democracy comes with responsbilities. If you don't want to get involved, don't want to vote but just wish to complain, then you are voluntarily operating in a non-democratic mode. You might as well be under a dictatorship, because you willingly have no voice. This is futile. Please post here after the next four years of democracy and tell me things have changed so much for the better that corporations aren't laying off thousands and moving plants to Mexico....that babies aren't dying because of some stupid ass war....that gas won't be $3.00 a gallon....that politicians aren't still flapping their lips about "change"....when nothing ever changes but the faces. How will I be able to see and honest politician? He'll be dead....that's how. Six....don't worry about treading lightly...my father and I don't see eye to eye on much. He's a crook too. But, at least he's honest about it. I can respect someone like that. I hate hypocrites! He'll tell you in a second he goes on trips to lobby using the taxpayers money. He'll tell you in a heartbeat he hates anyone foreign. He doesn't apologize. He told me he knows he's going straight to hell when he dies.
• 

  wednesday

  He doesn't apologize. He told me he knows he's going straight to hell when he dies.

  well, since we do know hell is only a fictional place or at worst, sleep, i guess he's safe. My dad used to say he knew he had a "front seat in Hell.."
• 

  avishai

  I think this is so true. For all the rhetoric and claims that they would do things, I think "I would if I could ... but I can't" is a face saving way of saying "of course I bloody wouldn't! ... but I'll sit on my arse and argue that other people should go and not bother about all those that get killed".

  Simon, i took the ASFAB, the test TO get into the military, and aced it. My medical record sez' I'm not eligible. So please don't put words in my mouth. Since I said "Ditto" to the post you are referring to, ... I take offense. I dig you, man. But presuming my thoughts and what I feel and have done in my life is'nt fair. Cool?
• 

  plmkrzy

  And who CREATED 9/11?

  Just ask Simon and six, They know more then anyone, even more then Iraq, that we Americans brought it all on ourselves and not only that but deserved it. Those who died on Sept 11 got what they deserved and so did their families. The entire country should be destroyed for all its evil and corrupting of the rest of the world. Poor Bin Ladden has worked so hard to protect the world from us. He loves Simon dearly and would gladly put his own life on the line to safe guard him and his family from the clutches of us evil northerners. Forget about the hundreds/thousands of people in the middle east who have no limbs because they were chopped off in public or the women who have no faces because they were doused with acid baths. That?s not important. What?s important is what someone that has no clue about suffering and living a life in complete fear every single day of their life thinks. Nothing else matters.

  Its all our fault for being strong enough to extend a helping hand to countries who ask for help then we ignore the wishes of their beloved terrorists. Oh wait, they don't have terrorists I forgot, we made them in the year 2000. Oh hell we invented war!
• 

  Realist

  plmkrzy,

  what do you know and think about US involvment in the middle east over the last 50 years?

  can you imagine why the arabs in the middle east might not like the US?
• 

  plmkrzy

  I can think of a lot of people I don't like but I will nevr butcher children because I think they have parents that don't like me.

  Tell me what you think of men that poor acid on young girls faces and disfigure them for life because they were rejected for marriage? Do you think it's not your problem and turn the other way?

  What do you think of people that torture women and consider them dogs only worthy of being beaten daily and degraded, held prisoner until they day death frees them from their existence?

  What do you think of people that kill babies because they were unfortunate enough to be born female?

  I know, you don?t have to tell me I already know. ITS NOT YOUR PROBLEM!
• 

  Realist

  plmkrzy,

  you are generously evading my question. perhaps you can write something regarding my question if you have an answer.

  also as you know bush did not attack either afghanistan nor iraq for the reasons you listed. neither does he attack saudi arabia, kuwait, india or any other state with similar treatment of woman.

  and where was your concern for these woman before 9/11 anyway?

  now to your statements:

  babies are not killed in arab nations. i never heard that...if you have a credible link please show it. it happens unfortunately in india and china.

  men that poor acid on young girls faces and disfigure them for life because they were rejected for marriage?

  again do you have a link? this too is something that happens in india not in arab nations.

  What do you think of people that torture women and consider them dogs only worthy of being beaten daily and degraded, held prisoner until they day death frees them from their existence?

  link!?

  it seems to me you have listed all horror stories of abuse of woman you have ever heard and attribute them to the arabs. unfortunately almost everything you list does indeed happen. but primarily in nations where you do nothing about.

  nad yes it makes me sad that these things happen as it saddens every normal person. yet there is very little we can do. if you have an initiative about how to help them let me know!
• 

  blacksheep

  link!?

  it seems to me you have listed all horror stories of abuse of woman you have ever heard and attribute them to the arabs. unfortunately almost everything you list does indeed happen. but primarily in nations where you do nothing about.

  Now who's living in a fantasy world. Did you just somehow MISS all the details on the treatment of women under Taliban rule? How they were not allowed to leave there houses unaccompanied by male family members? How they had to wear burqua's, clothing which completed covered their bodies with only a netted veil near the eyes for them to see. If they allowed any part of their body to be seen in public, even accidentially, they were beaten, raped or both. They were not allowed an education.

  Overturning the Taliban ended that. Girls are being educated, not forced to wear burqa'--not treated as chattle.

  I am personally not wasting my time on trying to find an internet link for someone who is so obviously clueless as to the real plight of people in many Arab nations. And who fancies themselves such an expert in international conditions.

  Yeah, too bad Saddam is gone; he was able to keep the peace. I suppose terrorism and murder is a good way to keep peace. Obviously you don't care what the means are.
• 

  Realist

  blacksheep,

  you need to learn how to read carefully.

  Now who's living in a fantasy world. Did you just somehow MISS all the details on the treatment of women under Taliban rule? How they were not allowed to leave there houses unaccompanied by male family members? How they had to wear burqua's, clothing which completed covered their bodies with only a netted veil near the eyes for them to see. If they allowed any part of their body to be seen in public, even accidentially, they were beaten, raped or both. They were not allowed an education.

  what exactly does this have to do with systematic killing of female babies, acid attacks or the systematic torture of females which are supposedly viewed as dogs?

  the taliban are religious nuts for whom i harbor no sympathy but they did not support the actions described by plmkrzy. they want to live strictly according to the sharia. again if you have a link from a credible organization that shows otherwise please provide it. in contrast to you i do not refuse to educate myself.

  here is one for you ... it might enlighten you a little:

  http://www.calguard.ca.gov/ia/Taliban/Taliban%20-%20Kabul%20Diary.htm

  The key point is that, for many in Afghanistan, the Taliban are a great improvement on what went before. An Amnesty Report covering the (pre-Taliban) period from 1992 to 1994 was entitled 'Women in Afghanistan: A Human Rights Catastrophe'. For those who find it difficult to understand why there should be any sympathy for the Taliban the report makes challenging reading. Over that period, it says,

  armed groups massacred defenceless women in their homes, or have brutally beaten and raped them. Scores of young women have been abducted and raped, taken as wives by commanders or sold into prostitution . . . Scores of women have . . . 'disappeared' and several have been stoned to death . . . The perpetrators are the main Mujahideen groups . . . As territory changes hands after long battles, an entire local population can be subjected to violent retaliatory punishments. The conquerors often celebrate by killing and raping women and looting property.

  These days, rape - at least by strangers and soldiers - is relatively rare in Taliban-controlled areas. So is the widespread theft and abduction referred to in the report. The Taliban soldiers are on the whole well-behaved. Wrong-doers in the ranks are punished, often savagely, which wasn't the case among the Mujahideen groups who preceded them. In much of the country the dismal security situation has been turned round. There is a system of justice and rudimentary policing which, whatever its manifest flaws, does function. I once asked the owner of a roadside tea stall near the eastern town of Ghazni what he felt about the Taliban. 'Now you could leave a bar of gold in the street overnight and it would be safe,' he said.