haha, I really didn't mean that in a bad way. It's an expression I use (I know it's not a nice one) - but I really don't mean anything by it, although I shouldn't use it on the boards I suppose since you guys don't know that.
Sorry
To the Defenders of George Bush and the War in Iraq
by Greenpalmtreestillmine 208 Replies latest social current
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Xena
By winning I mean we need to finish what we started. At this point leaving would be a disaster, I believe that is something we can both agree on, yes? Personally I think something should have been done about terrorists a LONG time ago, even when I was a dub I has issues with our government not acting when our embassies were bombed and citizens killed. But that's another entire thread
I know that you'll find people in this thread saying "yes, I'd sign up, and I'd gladly have my son or daughter sign up" but the mathmatical reality is that it is very doubtful that they would.
Regardless of what your "statistics" show you are calling into question something I stated ergo you are calling me a liar. I don't appreciate that.
those people are probably just not doing the self-examination you're asking of them, Greentrees.
Again your opinion without knowing what type of self-examination I (or anyone else on this thread) may or may not have done. But if it makes you feel better to consider others less introspective than yourself just because their opinion may differ from yours well I guess there isn't anything anyone can do about that, now can they?
I have a lot of opinions about a lot of things....I am no longer a JW...I feel they are a cult....but I don't go out and protest at their assemblies...I don't canvas support against them.....I haven't been involved in "bringing down the tower"...does that make my opinion of the dubs any less valid? Am I not allowed to still have a voice?
The premise of this thread was childish...it was an attempt to shame anyone who might support this war in any way into silence.
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czarofmischief
Wow, Xena, I get all hot and bothered when you wear bunny ears and talk war to me... rowr...
CZAR
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Greenpalmtreestillmine
CZAR,
I am not a pacifist. Using your analogy, of course I would support fighting and if necessary killing the terrorists who have taken over the plane. I would deal with the problem directly, subdue or kill the highjackers! I would kill them myself if I had to and I would be all for anyone else who was trying to save everyone on the plane.
But if five of us were agreed to act together to overpower the highjackers and on the way down the center aisle one of them sees a man they recognize as someone on the FBI's most wanted list and he diverts three of the five to get this guy, what sense does that make?
I say take down the guys that are about to kill us, when that's done then turn in the other guy. Saddam was a bad guy, so were his sons. In my opinion what we did was to divert our full military might and economic resources to go fight a bad guy sitting along the aisle. Saddam did not kill 3000 Americans, Osama did. Saddam is in prison, Osama is on the loose with his dialysis machine still operating.
I am sorry if I have offended anyone with this thread. I am for the troops, but I am not for the killing of our finest young people in a cause which my government has not been able to clearly justify before most of the American people. During WWll, there were critics of the war but there was also an overwhelming effort to not only support that war but to encourage enlistment. During the Vietnam war there was no national effort to support the war or encourage enlistment. There was a good reason for that. The government failed to convince the majority of Americans that the Vietnam war was in our own best interests, that the loss of life was justified.
The country is divided on this. But I think it is a mistake to think that those Americans who do not support the Iraq war are pacifists or not loyal Americans. Most Americans love their country and they would fight to defend it, imo. The problem is that the Bush Administration has failed to justify the war to the majority. Dr. Rice said there was no silver bullet that could have prevented 9/11, well, for many of us there is no smoking gun to justify conducting this war now. They made a tactical error, that has hindered the war on terror. If a General's poor judgement hindered the winning of the war, he would be recalled. I believe it is time to recall the Commander and Chief.
This is my first visit into politics and I do not like it one bit. Democrats are for Democrats, Republicans for Republicans. Who is for just the American people? Who is for just America? I am voting as an Independent against President Bush not because he is a Republican but because of this war. After this election I think I will do as so many Americans do, stay out of the political circus. It is a circus, they go round and round, spending money in this direction one year then when the other party gets in power they try to undo what the previous party did and spend more money in the opposite direction.
Neither party is balanced. The Republicans seem to be for the right to have almost any kind of weapon in the house but insisting that this country is under God and Christian. They are against abortion but repeatedly hinder the passing of increased funds to support the programs needed to help children who are brought into this world unwanted by their mothers.
The Democrats are for saving the Environment, but they are oblivious to the damaged social environment many of our young people are growing up in. The Right of Free Speech is now the flag above every kind of debauchery in the media and in our cities.
Both Parties have damaged the country, imo. I know my thoughts are not right on the mark etc. but they are my thoughts and not that of my political party or my religion or anything else. I think the hardest thing was leaving the JWs and finding out that many people on the outside are so polarized and so unwilling to put down their political differences for the sake of the country and the American people. Why do we have to be conservatives or liberals, why can't we just be Americans? The Conservative point of view has some merit, the Liberal point of view does also.
As for our young men and women in harms way in Iraq, I am voting for Kerry because I believe he will have a better chance at getting the U.N. and our European allies to help us in Iraq. He will be a fresh start, this is the political reality right now I think. In this way maybe the troops will have some relief and come home a little earlier and alive.
I am sorry if I put things the wrong way at the beginning of this thread. I was just so upset, not because of war but because of unjustified war killing our young. My intention was not to cause hurt, but it seems I have. I am very sorry about that and I think it's best I stay out of political talk and save my opinion for the election booth.
Sabrina
Edited to add:
The premise of this thread was childish...it was an attempt to shame anyone who might support this war in any way into silence.
No, Xena. That was not the purpose of this thread. The purpose of this thread was to find out if those who support the war support would it with more than just words. I'm glad we have some people here who would stick behind what they say.
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czarofmischief
I am sorry if I put things the wrong way at the beginning of this thread. I was just so upset, not because of war but because of unjustified war killing our young. My intention was not to cause hurt, but it seems I have. I am very sorry about that and I think it's best I stay out of political talk and save my opinion for the election booth.
First off, Sabrina, let me commend you for voicing your opinion. As long as you and I can do that, then our brothers and sisters are not dying for nothing. I understand that as you begin your forays into political discussion, it often seems that people are attacking YOU when they are attacking your opinions or assertions. But I'm not. We are both Americans, and as your post made clear to me, you love this country as much or more than I do - you may even be a better American. You may have a better strategy for the Middle East than all of us. That's why it is necessary to exchange opinions in a democracy - but American democracy is robust, boisterous, and oftentimes linguistically violent. If you want to play American Democracy, well, get ready for mud! But it's fun, once you get used to it. :)
The other problem, or challenge, is to clearly convey your personality through your posts - these forums lack body language that helps to communicate so much regarding intentions and fervor. So, that is why we are often replying over and over again, rephrasing our statements so as to convey our genuine intent, smooth over rough patches, etc. It's an art that takes time and practice to acquire skill in. So, please, don't give up, just because people took what you said the wrong way! It is just a toll of this new form of communication: the Internet.
Your point about Iraq was valid - why are we there? Some would say that we are there for oil (not true) or at the behest of corporate conspiracies (ludicrous). Others would declare ALL war as being wrong (forgive me, I thought this was your opinion, again, the limitations of the medium came through.)
Look at the strategic standpoint - we need to establish democracy in the middle East so as to reduce the political and social frustration endemic to the current governments that cause terrorism. We obviously must help militarily and economically - if the people could do it themselves they would have by now. Having established friendly relations with Pakistan (the major player on the East end of the Middle East, and the regions only nuclear power next to Israel) and having helped overthrow the regime in Afghanistan - we had the east end of Iran blocked off. Iran is the heart of fanatical Islam. The moderates are trying to reform the society, but they are alone, confused, and intimidated by the reactionaries that are right in their faces! ergo, We can help the moderates' position by encouraging democratic reform all around them.
Invading Iran is not necessary - regime change COULD occur if motivated properly. Iraq's regime could never change without outside intervention. Saddam's sons would have inherited and been worse than papa ever was. So, by helping Iraq, we also conveniently blocked off Iran's access to the West of the Middle East. Now, we have Iran surrounded - do you think it is a coincidence they are suddenly kowtowing to the IAEA?
Now, Libya - an unanticipated boon. Ghadaffi is a survivor, a rat of rats, and if he is jumping off the Islamist boat, you can bet it's sinking. So, a nice bonus for doing the right thing in Iraq - an actual state sponsor of terrorism turns in its WMD, and we didn't have to do a thing in that particular desert.
Syria is probably next - eventually, after the wall around Israel is built, Syria will be invaded ala Iraq and turned into a democratic system more in tune with the needs of the world. With their ability to use suicide bombers taken away by the wall - the state sponsored terrorism would have lost its efficacy and become a significant liability in view of the growing American influence. Finito. Even the mothers of Palestinians are marching against Hamas now, protesting their recruitment of their children as suicide bombers.
Hence, W's strategy makes a great deal of sense, if you are interested in preventing the root cause of 9/11 - the lack of democratic freedom in the middle East.
CZAR
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Xena
No, Xena. That was not the purpose of this thread. The purpose of this thread was to find out if those who support the war support would it with more than just words. I'm glad we have some people here who would stick behind what they say
Then I apologize, if I misunderstood your intent
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Greenpalmtreestillmine
CZAR,
Thank you very much. I promise I will think about what you said. I hope with all my heart you are right about the Middle East. It would be a wonderful thing for us and the whole world if the problems there were settled. My worry though is that in order to establish democracy over there it seems we must delicately play the role of a perceived Christian nation attempting to restrain Islamic peoples. What I mean is, in order to establish democracy we must de-establish Islamic fundamentalism. That could take a hundred years!
I would not be a good President or General. I would say, OK. We get Osama, establish democracy in Afghanistan and get the you know what out of there.
Thank you for explaining things, it does help.
Xena,
Thank you.
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Brownboy
I will sit back and observe the will of Jehovah come to pass. The only way I would take part in war is if I knew that it was for Christ, or Jehovah. Otherwise the one that lives by the sword will die by it. I have no pity for those that choose to go to war. It was their personal choice. Let everyone reap what they sow. We will soon find out who Christ will stand on behalf of. I for one will never place myself in opposition to Christ..............have a great day.
Brownboy
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Yerusalyim
Would you be willing, if possible, to volunteer to fight in Iraq?
Are you encouraging your children or grandchildren to volunteer and fight?
Please list your names below.
I've been trying to get the Army to release me from the Training and Doctrine Command and let me go back to a field unit so I can go to Iraq or Afghanistan...no luck...I'm told I'm staying here for the next 18 months.
My son has decided upon a military career...he's trying for West Point...wants to go Infantry...Airborne...and later into the Special Forces. I'd be lying if I said I don't get a twinge in my heart to imagine my firstborn out in the battlefield...but I respect him and I'm proud of him. He's got three years of HS to go yet though. I encouraged my step-son to join...but being the good little JW he said no.
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copsec
Yes Green Palms, I would have supported a war in Iraq even when Clinton was in office. Now, don't get me wrong, I DETEST Clinton but I would not have supported HIM, just the war effort. Our troops are keeping OUR country safe and we HAVE to show them we appreciate it, otherwise why should they care? And as for it being hard for people because their children are dying, well guess what? They die over here EVERY DAY for senseless reasons too. My 17 year old nephew has been dead for almost one year now and we have no idea what happened and it is driving my sister crazy. His was a senseless death. At least parents of soldiers, as hard as it is, can be proud of why their children died. And yes, if it happened to my child I would be torn apart. But ya know, people join the military every day knowing that someday they may have to fight and they may die and they CHOSE that life. Ok, I am off my ranting soapbox now. And yes, I am voting for Bush again and proud of that fact. All politicians are greaseballs. Anyone who thinks otherwise is nuts. I just happen to like him better than my other choices.
To those of you serving, getting ready to serve or have children serving, I admire you and keep you in my thoughts. You are brave souls.