To the Defenders of George Bush and the War in Iraq

by Greenpalmtreestillmine 208 Replies latest social current

• 

  Simon

  I know that you'll find people in this thread saying "yes, I'd sign up, and I'd gladly have my son or daughter sign up" but the mathmatical reality is that it is very doubtful that they would. To my knowledge, this war has not increased the rate of entry into the army, so unless JWD is just a hotbed of neocon loyalty, those people are probably just not doing the self-examination you're asking of them, Greentrees.

  I think this is so true. For all the rhetoric and claims that they would do things, I think "I would if I could ... but I can't" is a face saving way of saying "of course I bloody wouldn't! ... but I'll sit on my arse and argue that other people should go and not bother about all those that get killed".

  Because generally supporters of our President, our troops and the war are not as mouthy and pushy as those that oppose.

  I too disagree with this. One thing that has happened is that some of those who very vocally (and often aggressively) backed the war to an extreme extent have buggered off because they ended up very exposed.

  • They claimed we'd find WoMD ... we didn't.
  • They claimed the war would be quick and easy ... it wasn't (despite Dub's arrival for his photo-shoot and simple declaration that it was over)
  • They claimed Iraq could be tranformed ... it hasn't and it has never looked like they had even a half-baked plan to do so
  • They claimed the Iraqi's would welcome the US troops ... they haven't (largey due to heavy handed action by troops who do not have experience of peace keeping)
  • They claimed the war was to do with Sep 11 and preventing terrorism ... it wasn't.
  • They claimed the war would prevent terrorism ... it hasn't, it has been a brilliant recruiting mechanism for Al Queada
  • They claimed there were good reasons for starting the war ... which kept changing every time
  • They claimed we weren't lied too .. WE WERE

  They claimed so many things and now the easiest thing to do is to whimper about "America bashing" and try and pretend that they left for different reasons than they really did.

  I don't think anyone can honestly defend Bush and Blair and the war any longer. It is simply a massive mistake and is now a massive problem that will exist whether they stay OR pull out. They really can't do either. I think the only thing to do now is stay and put it right, whatever the cost. But the cost should not be paid completely by patriotic people who sign up to defend their country ... the cost for the mistake shoudl ultimately be paid be the people who have let them down, who sent them on this fools mission.

  Well done Mr President and poodle Blair. You have pissed away the good will of the world like you pissed away your budget surplus and left the world in a mess. You have bolstered the 'cause' of terrorists around the world and fed their recruitment. They should both rot in jail or be fried for war crimes IMO.

  If Bush is re-elected then that sound you will hear is the world laughing at how unbelievably stupid the electorate is and crying at what suffering will be caused by another term of his rediculous comic book politics and religious right wing ideology.

  BTW: Put me down as a democrat although over here I vote conservative.
• 

  roybatty

  My father volunteered for WWll, he felt it was a necessary war. When Vietnam came along though, he felt it was a political war badly run. He was against that war and believed the young men who fled to Canada were doing the right thing. He served in WWll honorably but he said that when politicians send us to war it is not always a war in our best interests. He also said politicians to quote him, "don't know ****about war." He did not trust politicians.

  Take a look at the percent of men who volunteered to fight during WWII verse the percent who were drafted. Now compare those same numbers to Vietnam. You'll be surprised.
• 

  Mulan

  I haven't read all of the comments hear, and usually don't comment on war threads, but have to say this one thing.

  They have made such a colossal mess over there now, I wonder how on earth they can salvage anything at all. More and more are dying, and if they pull out now, the chaos they will leave behind will have terrible repurcussions I fear.

  That's it.
• 

  Xena

  I think this is so true. For all the rhetoric and claims that they would do things, I think "I would if I could ... but I can't" is a face saving way of saying "of course I bloody wouldn't! ... but I'll sit on my arse and argue that other people should go and not bother about all those that get killed".

  OMG you are like sooo totally right...I mean it has nothing to do with the fact that I am over 35 and have a 9 year old daughter to support...or that I was a JW for over 20 years.. ..bascially I'm just a lame ass american coward who just enjoys shooting my big mouth off and wants to enjoy the spoils of war over the corpses of dead people....wow I feel so much better now that I got that off my chest. Thank you for showing me the light.
• 

  copsec

  I love you Xena!!!!! You and I are just so much alike it frightens me! LOL
• 

  SixofNine

  By winning I mean we need to finish what we started. At this point leaving would be a disaster, I believe that is something we can both agree on, yes?

  There is a real question as to just what it is we started. A point you make very well just a couple sentences from this one. As to leaving now, yes, it would be a disaster. OTH it's already a disaster, and it may be, to borrow a military term, fubar. When your objective is this hazy, it's pretty damn hard to find your way there.

  Personally I think something should have been done about terrorists a LONG time ago,

  And this is just the point about "what it is we started". We are in a discussion about the war in Iraq. How and why did "something should have been done about terrorist" enter the discussion? This war is indeed creating terrorist and inciting existing terrorist, but other than that it is a war, at this point, to pacify a nation of 25 million people who's only crime is that they have no love for the United States. And then what? How long will they stay pacified?

  As several retired generals (who can speak much more freely than acting generals) have pointed out in the past few days, when asked by a news commentator "how do we get out of this mess; can we get out of this mess? (meaning the current situation with several different horrific flashpoints, mainly fallujah)" The generals have responded that of course we will succeed militarily, but what is needed is a political solution. IOW, casting an eye at Washington, they are saying, "we're the American military for godsake, yeah we can subdue a city of 200K people, all we have to do is kill people at 10:1 or 20:1 ratios, but then what?"

  Regardless of what your "statistics" show you are calling into question something I stated ergo you are calling me a liar. I don't appreciate that.

  Two points, a) you really can't just hand-wave away those statistics. They are totally relevent to the conversation at hand, and someone had to bring them out, or it wouldn't be much of an honest discussion, would it? b) I haven't called you a liar, at worst I've intimated that you are likely to be in a group of people who aren't totally honest with themselves.

  Yeru and Czar, I applaud you both for putting your money where your mouth is, as the saying goes. I personally feel that your politics ignore the reality of the way humans act and deal with each other, which is why Czar's "white paper" on the middle east sounds so authoritative and factual until you get into the nitty gritty reality of the assumptions.... but that is another thread. I admire that you are eager to defend our country with more than just words.
• 

  blacksheep

  To my knowledge, this war has not increased the rate of entry into the army,

  Well, obviously your knowledge is very limited. In my local paper today, April 11, 02, which paper also has a very well known liberal slant, on page A17 is an article entitled: "Combat not Stemming the Tide of Military Recruits." It outlines how recruits have actually increased in all major military arms. It contains an "At a Glance" table that says: "Navy: Navy re-enlistment rates are at an all-time high. Airforce: New recruit contracts are coming in at 104.2 percent of goal in fiscal year 2003. Army: The Army has been ahead of its goal every year since 2000 and every month so far this year."

  So, again, sorry to let the facts spoil your anti-war theories. You might want to do some checking before you speculate.
• 

  blacksheep

  This war is indeed creating terrorist and inciting existing terrorist, but other than that it is a war, at this point, to pacify a nation of 25 million people who's only crime is that they have no love for the United States.

  And who CREATED 9/11? You have a lot of gall to suggest that in the wake of 9/11 and now Madrid, that the only crime of terrorists and nations who habor them it to HATE the US.

  9/11 DID change the world. You cannot blame the war on Iraq for 9/11. And you don't CREATE terrorists. They exist and their very nature is to engage surprise attacks and destroy the morale and will of their victims. It obviously worked in Spain. It won't work in the US.
• 

  Realist

  blacksheep,

  You cannot blame the war on Iraq for 9/11. And you don't CREATE terrorists. They exist and their very nature is to engage surprise attacks and destroy the morale and will of their victims.

  why do they exist? have you ever asked yourself that question?
• 

  bisous

  this thread is so very very sad.

  sons and daughters, same age as mine, are DYING over there. It is easy to say "it was their choice, they can live with it" (paraphrasing BrownBoy).

  In USofA, many of our youth signed-up due to lack of economic parity (how many sons of rich and powerful are on the front lines, eh) .... not because of grand patriotism. Also, very very young and detached from the brutal reality of war. Not for an instant imagining what they would have to face upon signing on the dotted line ... instead in many cases having been promised the unattainable, security, an education, etc. etc.

  I will personally escort my son to either border if a draft occurs and he chooses to dodge it. Although, having spoken with him he would choose to be a conscientious objector and face the consequences here.

  well folks, y'all keep on trading your political jabs with each other, and our sons and daughters will keep on dying. Daily.

  not to mention the sons of the Iraqi mothers as well as the innocent families caught in the whole mess...what was their crime? oh right, living in a country we wanted to attack ... 1st.