NIV vs NWT

by azaria 44 Replies latest watchtower bible

zen nudist

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UnDisfellowshipped

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Abaddon said:
I think the point is that your subjective experiences are not anything other people can base anything on. There are people with alternative and frequently contradictory subjective experiences, who believe what they perceived really happened to them just as you believe it really happened to you.
Of course, both you and they insist they are right. As the experiences are contradictory, either one of you are right, or neither of you are right.
As you cannot provide any meaningful differentiation between your claims and their claims, it's reasonable to assume that you are as wrong as all the others that make such claims.
I believe completely that other people (non-Christians) do indeed "experience" supernatural things -- they originate from demonic sources. After all, "Satan keeps transforming himself into an angel of light." So, I would say that most all of the people who claim to have an "experience" have indeed experienced something supernatural. When I experienced the New Birth by the Lord Jesus Christ, it changed my whole personality and outlook on life. I now have so much more love for all people than I ever did before I had the experience. I also now know in my heart that I am saved and am going to Heaven, so I have a wonderful, unexplainable peace of heart and comfort that is beyond words. How many people besides Born Again Christians claim they have experienced that?
Abaddon said:
Why is being saved not based on whether or not you are a good person. Are you saying that Jesus will not save all good people? Why? It doesn't seem to be very good judgement.
The Bible says that in God's eyes, there are NO good people alive on earth, absolutely ZERO. Everyone is born in sin, and deserves to be punished in Hell for eternity separated from God. Romans 3:10-20 (NKJV): As it is written: " There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." " Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; " The poison of asps is under their lips"; " Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." " Their feet are swift to shed blood; Destruction and misery are in their ways; And the way of peace they have not known." " There is no fear of God before their eyes." Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. That is how God views ALL people who have not been Born Again, according to the Bible.
The scripture is also clear that the Creation of man happened well after the first traces of civilisation appeared, that the Flood happened at a point there is no evidence of it happening, that God thinks it's okay to consign virgin girls captured in war to forced relationships and that god thinks it's okay to punish great-great-grand children for their great-great-grand fathers sins.
I don't agree with most of what you said, but I don't have enough time right now to comment on all of it. Abaddon said:
This makes it clear that either the Bible is a flawed quasi-historical work incorporating the creation myths of a culture, or that god gives us an inaccurate book to guide us and has some funny morals himself.
To each his own opinion. Abaddon said:
As such is the case, your claims that those who do not know God and do not obey the Gospel are going to Hell are as believable as the story of the Flood,
I agree 100%. Abaddon said:
Of course, there is a chance that there is a god we can worship in spirit, who would eclipse these rather comdedic and shallow conceptions of god you draw from the Bible. A god that is not unjust, petty or partial. I'd be glad to worship that god. Unfortunately some people seem so focused on a traditional text-based conception of god they are willing to ignore the obvious contradictions, errors and other indications that the Bible is not inspired.
You want a god made after your own liking, well tough. People can always go make their own gods in their own images and worship them -- but it doesn't make it true.
Abaddon said:
Just because lots of people believe it doesn't mean that Christianity is any more true than the religions practised by other people, or that ANY of them are accurate.
I agree.
Abaddon

Undis
I believe completely that other people (non-Christians) do indeed "experience" supernatural things -- they originate from demonic sources.
After all, "Satan keeps transforming himself into an angel of light."

Which is what at least some would say regarding you. You miss the point. Person A says "I know I have truth". Person B says "I know I have truth". Their "truths" are different.
One is right or both are wrong. Both believe as fervently. Both will wave scriptures at you. How can I tell that YOU are not the one deceived by Satan? You defend yourself in a way that is indistinguishable in terms of verifiability from the way people YOU say are deceived by Satan defend themselves.
Surely the most efficient servant of Satan is one who doesn't know he's serving him?
I also now know in my heart that I am saved and am going to Heaven, so I have a wonderful, unexplainable peace of heart and comfort that is beyond words.
Like the Muslims who believe in the concept of Martyrdom (not all, but some do) know in their hearts that by dying for their faith they will go to heaven? Like Buhddists who will claim that they attain ' unexplainable peace of heart and comfort that is beyond words'. Is your wonder and elitist attitude towards your own feelings due to you being unaware that people of different faiths have the same feelings too?
Oh, could you give me scriptual backing for the concept of being 'saved', and tell me whether your belief in being 'saved' means that no matter what you do now you will remain 'saved' (and give scriptures to support your belief)? To me it sounds like the Papal doctrine of selling indulgences, except no cash changes hands; more like self-indulgence really then.
The Bible says that in God's eyes, there are NO good people alive on earth, absolutely ZERO. Everyone is born in sin, and deserves to be punished in Hell for eternity separated from God.
You have to show why the scriptures you claim mean that are any more reliable than the scriptures which we know are totally inacurate (like those regarding the Flood, Creation, etc.).
Yes, I know you "don't agree" with some of the above, and that you "don't have enough time right now to comment on all of it". As it stands, to me, your claims are indistinguishable from many other claims by both Christians and non-Christian.
I'd LOVE to see you refute the plain, simple evidentary trail that shows the Flood, for example, could not have been a literal Global Flood.
To each his own opinion.
Quite; yours is based on internal references and a subjective opinion. As such your opinion is in the same 'basket' as all the other people whose opinions are based on internal references (by that I mean pointing to the Bible as a 'proof' without showing the Bible is inspired) and a subjective opinion. As some people in that 'basket' kill others using their internal references and objective opinions as justification, I'm not that impressed.
You want a god made after your own liking, well tough. People can always go make their own gods in their own images and worship them -- but it doesn't make it true.
Nor does your reliance on a flawed quasi-historical text make your beliefs true, just as your internal conviction that you are saved does not make that conviction 'true'. JCanon thinks he's Jesus. He has as much evidence to support his claims as you do.
If you agree that Christianity is not neccesarily "any more true than the religions practised by other people", then how do you explain god leaving humankind in a postion where the 'one way' is indistinguishable from all the rest? Again, your answers should distinguish yourself from the rest; judge a tree by it's fruits, eh? If you have the same fruits as all the other claimants to rightness, then you are the same sort of tree no matter what label you give yourself.
Feel free to take this to PM as I've diverged off topic in response to earlier claims made.
Joe Bloggs

Little Toe,
Joe:
This is the wrong media for that kind of conversation.
Are you going to Mike's BBQ?
Besides - why do you want to know?
I don't know you from Adam.
OK, perhaps this is not the best medium , I concede. Just interested, that's all. You have to admit though, that if an angel did in fact appear and conveyed certain messages to you, it would certainly be of interest to most people! However, I realize you may be reluctant to divulge such details, at least here. Another time maybe, perhaps at Mike's BBQ if I am able to get there.
Anyway, pure curiosity led me to ask those questions. I hope you didn't take offence, by the way, I was just genuinely interested, Take care, Joe
zen nudist

Which is what at least some would say regarding you. You miss the point. Person A says "I know I have truth". Person B says "I know I have truth". Their "truths" are different.
One is right or both are wrong. Both believe as fervently. Both will wave scriptures at you. How can I tell that YOU are not the one deceived by Satan? You defend yourself in a way that is indistinguishable in terms of verifiability from the way people YOU say are deceived by Satan defend themselves.
Surely the most efficient servant of Satan is one who doesn't know he's serving him?

here is the primary lie--- I KNOW I HAVE THE TRUTH.... proclaiming ones personal faith and belief as FACT is self deception at best, an out right lie at worst.
we all have experiences and with a bit of imagination, anyone can come up with at least 3 different possibilities that explain them... to dogmatically jump upon one and only one possibility is what most seem quite determined to do, but that does not show means to the truth, but only a lack of imagination and a quick road to self deceptions. most people tell me they KNOW in their HEART, but ignore that the bible in Jeremiah, says that the heart is wicked and deseperate and not to be trusted, that Proverbs warns that there exists a way that seems right to a man, but it is the way to death, etc.
I did past life regression, I experienced what seems like memories from previous lives...but were they? I have no means to verify them. yet one of them showed me something of history I had no clue about prior. so does that prove it was real? no, it proves nothing actually as there are still many other possibilities... 1. I read or heard about this history and forgot. 2. I have tapped into some universal memory. 3. its just a coincidence without any real meaning, 4. I am god and insane and hallucinating everything.
Abaddon

zen nudist
I think what we are both trying to say is something along the lines of;
There is no spoon
UnDisfellowshipped

Abaddon said:
Which is what at least some would say regarding you. You miss the point. Person A says "I know I have truth". Person B says "I know I have truth". Their "truths" are different.
One is right or both are wrong. Both believe as fervently. Both will wave scriptures at you. How can I tell that YOU are not the one deceived by Satan? You defend yourself in a way that is indistinguishable in terms of verifiability from the way people YOU say are deceived by Satan defend themselves.
Jesus said:
"You shall know them by their fruits" AND "By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have LOVE for one another" and "no one has love greater than this, that one should die for his friends."
Those are the best ways to distinguish the true faith from false religions.
Abaddon said:
Surely the most efficient servant of Satan is one who doesn't know he's serving him?
Most likely, that is true. Even most people who directly worship Satan (like the upper levels of Freemasonry) believe that Satan is Lucifer, the angel of light.
Satan's biggest and best agents are false teachers who are deceived into believing lies (such as the JWs and Mormons and Roman Catholics).
UnDisfellowshipped

Abaddon said:
Like the Muslims who believe in the concept of Martyrdom (not all, but some do) know in their hearts that by dying for their faith they will go to heaven? Like Buhddists who will claim that they attain ' unexplainable peace of heart and comfort that is beyond words'. Is your wonder and elitist attitude towards your own feelings due to you being unaware that people of different faiths have the same feelings too?
My main point was that Born Again Christians KNOW they are saved (present tense), as opposed to just about all other religions, which teach that you MUST do something to be saved in the future.
I don't think there are any religions anywhere (other than Born Again Christians) where the believers KNOW they are saved without having the fear of not being "good enough" for God.
Born Again Christians are the only people I know of who actually believe what the Bible says about salvation being God's FREE GIFT by Undeserved Kindness!
Abaddon said:
Oh, could you give me scriptual backing for the concept of being 'saved', and tell me whether your belief in being 'saved' means that no matter what you do now you will remain 'saved' (and give scriptures to support your belief)? To me it sounds like the Papal doctrine of selling indulgences, except no cash changes hands; more like self-indulgence really then.
Once a person is genuinely Born Again by The Spirit of God, that person cannot ever go to Hell. (read the Book of 1st John)
A person who has been genuinely Born Again cannot practice sin because The Spirit is actually living inside of his heart. (read 1st John)
A Born Again Christian definitely will still sin, but he cannot willfully practice sin.
Even if a Born Again Christian sins and does not live a holy life, he will still be saved, even though he will lose out on any rewards in Heaven:
1st Corinthians 3:11-15: For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Yes, a Born Again Christian will go to Heaven no matter what he does, but the Bible teaches that a Born Again Christian CANNOT willfully practice sin.
ozziepost

Born Again Christians are the only people I know of who actually believe what the Bible says about salvation being God's FREE GIFT by Undeserved Kindness!
I get rather 'put off' when people use the expression "born again christian". What does it mean? To me it's just as odious as the WTS speaking of "true christians". But that's me. I know I'm a christian. No special title. No special position (on earth). Just a heartfelt faith in my Lord, Jesus Christ. Isn't that enough?
onacruse

This is a classic case of the partitive vs. conjunctive sense of the Greek genitive case (See Dana and Mantey, p. 147)
It cuts both ways, as the translator decides.

NIV vs NWT

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