Should the age of consent for sexual acts be changed?

by RubyTuesday 59 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • Simon
    Simon

    In the UK, new laws have just been enacted to ensure that, among other thing, any sex involving minors is classed as rape, whether 'concensual' or not. There are also laws about 'grooming' children:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3675057.stm

    I think this is a damn good idea. But there are still serious questions concerning the names of pedophile-site subscribers given to the UK police that some alledge contain the names of high up officials and members of the the government. The leads have **not** been followed up properly in the UK.

    Any society can be judged on how it treats it most vulnerable - children, the elderley and the mentally impaired.

  • LyinEyes
    LyinEyes

    Thanks DanO,,,,,,,,I tell ya my son is 17, I can not seeing him going to jail if he had a g/f that was say,,,15 1/2 and they both decided to have sex. I don't want that to happen but , it does. I had a long talk with my son, after my hubby told me about an 18 yr old that is serving 10 yrs for this very thing. Even the girls parents told the judge that their daughter consented to having sex , the judge still charged him with statory rape.

    This is where I think there should be laws , guidelines with a base line age of consent of 15 or 16, BUT I think each case should be judged with all circumstances considered.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    What is grooming? I've never heard the word used in that way before. Combing kids' hair is okay, right? Or no?

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    Leolaia, perhaps this might help you understand 'grooming'.

    http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_647447.html?menu=news.technology.internetcrime

    Calls to speed up child sex laws on 'internet grooming'

    The Government is facing pressure to speed up the introduction of new laws to prevent paedophiles "grooming" children over the Internet.

    It follows the disclosure that police searching for missing schoolgirls Jessica Chapman and Holly Wells are concentrating on contacts they may have made over the web.

    Home Secretary David Blunkett says legislation is needed in the next session of Parliament and it is expected that a Sexual Offences Bill will be included in the Queen's Speech.

    A Government task force on child protection on the internet - originally set up in March last year - is due to present its recommendations to ministers after MPs return to Westminster in the autumn.

    The Home Office says it is looking at a range of measures to tackle paedophiles who use the Internet to "groom" youngsters.

    It reflects deepening concerns about the way some paedophiles have used Internet chatrooms to pose as teenagers and set up meetings with children they have contacted.

    John Carr, policy adviser to the National Children's Society who sat on the task force, says the powers currently available to the police are inadequate to prevent such activities.

    However, he's warning any new legislation must strike a balance with civil liberties.

    "We want to strengthen the position of the police to take action," he told The Times.

    "We certainly don't want to criminalise someone going through a mid-life crisis and using the Internet to pretend he is 20 years younger."

  • outnfree
    outnfree
    "We certainly don't want to criminalise someone going through a mid-life crisis and using the Internet to pretend he is 20 years younger."

    WTF??!!!!!

    Mid-life crisis at THIRTY-NINE (or less) and pretending he's a teen-ager? That's bizarre. Firstly, mid-life crises usually come a bit later; secondly, even if the guy wants a younger woman it's usually a 20-something trophy babe, not a CHILD in a chat room for teens! The above quote's attitude is precisely what is wrong. So we don't want to "criminilize someone" for pretending he's 20 years younger, but we certainly don't want to allow as if that is NORMAL behavior, do we?

    In Michigan the age of consent without legal ramifications is 16 for both sexes and I guess that's about right. I do think that an age-gap limit is a good idea. I think 3 years is a wide enough gap, too. I would personally prefer not more than 2 years, but regardless, I think that if it were clear it was three, and people understood they were taking chances of being legally liable for rape or molestation charges if they dated anyone more than 3 years younger, it would be helpful in cases of unequal age and/or maturity.

    outnfree

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex
    I do think that an age-gap limit is a good idea

    I've got to agree with you on this. There's a big difference between a 19 year old boy having sex with his 17 1/2 year old girlfriend versus that same 19 year old boy and a 13 year old girl. I don't pretend to know enough about the subject to be able to say how much of a gap would be criminal but I do think the law needs to be expanded on this subject.

  • LyinEyes
    LyinEyes

    I agree Big Tex,, about the age gap.

    My son came home with a note for me to sign , giving him permission to attend the sex education classes at school. Of course my son and I have had many discussions about sex, STD's, birth control and pregnancy. It was not always easy to talk so candidly but I just told him everything I could, talked about the myths and all the things that can happen that alot of kids dont think of.
    Still I do want him to hear it all again with his class mates....knowing the kids at school like I do, I am sure it will be a lively discussion....lol.

    What I see as interesting is that on the permission slip , 10th grade and up , boys and girls are going to be in the same class. The freshman and junior high are going to be divided into boys groups and girls groups. I wonder if they are doing this because they know that most of the 10th graders are already having sex with each other. No joke, I know these kids , and most of the 10th graders, have been having sex for a couple of years now. When I was in school, the majority of kids didnt have sex until at least after 16, I know some did before that age, but on the whole that was the way it was. Now I would say the kids in our areas are having sex at 14 and younger. And so many of them that are not actually having sexual intercourse, are having oral sex, and everything but the actual act.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    I've been in meetings most of the day and am just about to go in another, but here's my initial reaction... and the article dates from June 14th 1993... and the webpage it is on looks like it would quote selectively to make a point... the real deal on the lady is here;

    http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/justices/ginsburg.bio.html

    1. The traditional family concept of the husband as a breadwinner and wife as a homemaker must be eliminated.

    And the problem with that is? Why can't guys be homemakers and women breadwinners? Wouldn't it be nice if both men and women took an equal part in raising children? Or are that many women interested in remaining at the sidelines of business and polotics whilst they keep house and wait for hubby? Well let them. I like my ladies liberated. Don;t worry, there's a difference between eliminating a stereotype and making something illegal!!!

    2. The federal government must provide comprehensive child care.

    ... so they can get taxes from the mothers that would thus be able to work? Oh, how terrible. I mean, all those single teen mothers who got pregnant because of the prudish level of sex education in the US would be - gasp - helped out of the poverty trap their horniness and their countries religiosity has trapped them and their children in. Maybe, over time, the enabling them to stand on their own two feet with a little help will ensure they don't remain a burden. What a bad idea!

    3. The Homestead Law must give twice as much benefit to couples who live apart from each other as to a husband and wife who live together.

    Don't know enough about this to comment

    4. In the military, women must be drafted when men are drafted, and women must be assigned to combat duty.

    Which part of sexual equality have people failed to understand? Great idea... will make people think twice about having wars; dismembered female is far less attractive than dismembered man.

    5. Affirmative action must be applied to equalize the number of men and women in the armed forces.

    Armed forces? Hell, just as I think as a woman I'd not vote for a political party that didn't have equal numbers of male and female candidates (why help men stay in control? Doh!). Likewise I'd be wary of any company where the gender make-up of the company didn't mirror society... or do we still think women are stupid? Or do we still think that women, because they do the hard part of breeding, should have to choose between biology and a successful career? Last time I looked the human race would die out if women stopped having babies. Maybe we owe women something for this... I can understand men disagreeing with this... after all, they'd have to work harder to compete against women, and who wants competiton when you can just scream about how unfair it is? "Oh, I'm a man, 95% of CEO are men, it's SO UNFAIR waaaaah! God right-wingers are the biggest babies going...

    6. The age of consent for sexual acts must be lowered to 12 years of age.

    Does this being highlighted in yellow mean I have to disagree? Seriously, how many people who will go on about how we must protect out children have their teen or pre-teen daughter's wearing stuff that makes them look like mini-hookers, or who will have a secret thing about that Britney school-girl video? Our society SEXUALISES children hand-over-fist, and we are suprised there is a problem? Maybe society should grow up, or at least stop taking the stupid pills.

    Age of consent used to have nothing that much to do with consent in the way we mean it nowaday. It was based on fertiltiy. In tribal societies it's normally mensturation age, in Europe in the middle ages it was 12, by Church Law... in quite a few of the United States states it has only been raised from 14 in the past few years. According to Wikipedia you can still get married at 14 in Texas with your parent's consent.

    However, now we base age of consent on the ability to give informed consent. As people are not expected to be acting as adults (boys working, girls being married) in their early teens anymore, they are not raised with the expectation of adulthood at 14, or whatever. Because of this they are still children at that age, and need protection. 16 is the commonest age of consent around the developed world, and is a good enough one.

    HOWEVER, does this mean a 17 year-old should go to prison for having consensual sex with a 15 year-old? No, that would be silly, let alone unjust.

    I think that a staged-consent rule is sensible, as some countries already have; the rules in Germany for example;

    • 18 years in dependency relationships (teacher/student etc.)
    • 16 years if the older partner is over 18 and coerces the younger partner into sex other than by physical means, or if the older partner pays the younger partner to have sex.
    • 16 years if the older partner is over 21 and exploits "lack of sexual self-determination" of the younger partner (only prosecuted after complaints or "public interest", in practice rarely prosecuted with little or no punishment)
    • 14 years for all other sexual relationships.

    (source: Wikipedia)

    ... other countries have small differences - in Holland it's similar, but sex for money under 18 is illegal (quite rightly), and if (as an adult) you've EVER had sex with anyone under 16 ANYWHERE in the world, you're a criminal. A very good idea. In Canada 14 year-olds can have sex with 12 year-olds.

    Of course, having a 13 year-old daughter the idea of that is horrid. But I would rather a country have a decent sex education system, and not punish or stigmatise teenagers for having sex with each other (as what good does it do?) than make rules that will criminalise the inevitable small numbers who develop early and experiment? Even in countries with age-of-consent rules like those mentioned above, the average age of first intercourse is above 16; a lower age doesn't encourage kids, it criminalises the early developers.

    And as far as an age-of-consent of 16 or 18 being some cure-all from harm, well, teen pregnancy is far higher in the USA and UK (with crappy sex education systems) than in the rest of Europe or Canada http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/journals/3324401.html.

    7. Prostitution must be legalized. She wrote, "Prostitution as a consensual act between adults is arguably within the zone of privacy protected by recent constitutional decisions."

    Anyone going to argue it isn't? If you can sell guns, why can't you sell your vagina? I wonder if pornographers or arms manufacturers get invited to the Whitewash House more often? Anyone want to discuss the difference between the health of a hooker in a country where it is legal and where it isn't legal?

    8. All-boy and all-girl organizations must be sexually integrated, as must all fraternities and sororities. The Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts must change their names and their purposes to become sex-integrated.

    Well, on the other hand we could carry on with Victorian institutions that seperate the sexs like they were different species. Maybe that cute little uniform is more important than laying the foundations for equality after all...

    Sounds amazing she ever got in in a country as religious and right-wing as the USA; oh, yeah... 1993... ha!

    (edited to remove factual error)

  • XQsThaiPoes
    XQsThaiPoes

    I am torn because it is bigoted to make these stupid laws. You guys know how the watchtower works and most people here hate it. Yet when it comes to their own pet society it is all good what ever they can sign into law is perfectly moral. In the rest of the no so nice word prostitution is not exploitation. It is work for men, and women. Look at all the ladyboys in thailand for example. You are just making more "porneia" laws. I sincerely think this is just people that are bigots in some form trying to sanitized a futilty dirty world with placebos just like the WTS does. Write a magic abracaddabra called a law and instantly you are safe from those demons called reality.

    In africa children are bron with aids and may not make 12. Where you add civil unrest, and war childrens are dying in warfare for their flavor of the week. Roving child gangs are a problem in most of the world including America. It has little to do with emotions, intellect, or informed consent. It is biology. Give a 12 year old a gun in the right enviroment, and they will kill you if you get in their way just like a 18, 21, or 35 year old.

    Holland is insane. That is the stupidest law I ever heard. You are arresting your citizens for doing something legal in another part of the world. Why don't they arrest people that drive in other lands for driving on the wrong side of the road while you are at it. Apparently if one government does something holland does not like then they just arrest who ever goes there and does it. Remember when the communist did stuff like that. If Alabamma decided to arrest any homosexual or interacial couple that left the state and returned people would flip out and I am sure Holland would be pissed too. I am against child abuse, but these laws are unnatural, and prevent nothing.

    My Grand Father born in 1928 endured back breaking child labor as soon as he was able to walk. Most of your grandparents or great grandparents did. They got married when ever they felt like it, and had sex when ever they wanted in if they had the choice. The world did not implode. There was no global moral depravity that was bannished to the neither world of pimps, and pedophilles when the age of consent became 18. It just made people feel better knowing things they didn't like were illegal.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    XQ

    I am torn because it is bigoted to make these stupid laws.

    Please explain how it is bigoted to make laws designed to prevent the abuse of children by adults. I'm all in favour of teens not being criminalised if they are early developers and experiment with those of like age, but you're denying children protection from adult sexual predators.

    In the rest of the no so nice word prostitution is not exploitation.

    Please provide evidence that 'in the rest of the world' prostitution does not cause exploitation. I'm all in favour of legalising it as that reduces expolitation, but to make the claim you have made you either have startling new evidence or are talking nonsense.

    Holland is insane. That is the stupidest law I ever heard. You are arresting your citizens for doing something legal in another part of the world.

    No, you are arresting someone for (as an example) going to Thailand and having vaginal, anal and oral sex with a 14 year-old girl who was SOLD by her parents to a madam or pimp. You are arresting someone for going to a Eastern European country specifically because of the trade in human being that exists in some of them, and having sex with under-age girls kept captive by criminal gangs. Often they are arrested for doing something illegal in the part of the world where they were, but that they gpt away with because the country they were in is developing and has corrupt or poor policing.

    I'm quite happy with that. Why aren't you, or are you just running off at the mouth without having thought something through?

    Apparently if one government does something holland does not like then they just arrest who ever goes there and does it.

    Ah, that would be b/ then, "running off at the mouth without having thought something through". Yes, of course, you must be right, the Netherlands, famous for coffee shops where you can buy cannabis, legalised prostitution, low age-of-consent and very very liberal view of pornography (you want tied up and whipped WITH animals or without? just ask) is actually a svage totalitarian reigeme.

    I am against child abuse, but these laws are unnatural, and prevent nothing.

    Explain this 'reasoning'.

    They got married when ever they felt like it,

    Actually, many got married when their parents told them they could and to whom they said they could get married to; and it would have been in line with the law of the time.

    Look XQ, having an opinion is great. Having an opinion that's based on assumptions and guesses just makes you look silly. Think, research, learn, develop. Look at all the stuff you make up cause you don't know what you are talking about!

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