Realist, I meant to put one of those smilies winking after that last post!
"Oh Europe's So Racially Tolerant"
by ColdRedRain 46 Replies latest social current
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Abaddon
hi blacksheep...
Well, you probably DID notice less non-Northern European people, as in the Netherlands only about 17% of the inhabitants ARE non-Northern Europeans.
This is about half the percentage of non-Northern Europeans in the USA; combined the black and 'Latin' populations are just over 30% of the US population, the rest being largely Northern European in origin.
Oh, doesn't the fact you guys have a special catagory for people with a racial origin we regard as European as our own make you wonder? We don't often distinguish between Northern European origin and Southern European origin.
However, the fact there are only half as many people of an obviously different race means nothing with regard to racial discrimination or integration. Just because there are less doesn't mean they are treated worse or disadvantaged. I'm surprised this isn't obvious to you.
Beyond that, who ever said "racial interrmarriage" is a sign of racial tolerance?
So it isn't? There might be other signs. Other factors, such as religion, may increase or decrease the effect. But to simply exclude it as you seem to try to do suggests you're clutching at straws. I notice the other factors regarding inequality (outcome of verdict and salary %) you don't go near - is that because they are unarguable signs of deep-seated inequality and disadvantage that don't suit your arguement?
As for statistics, in the Netherlands, 1 in 8 of marriages involve at least one partner not of Dutch birth.
Obviously not all of these are racially mixed; that would include a native Nederlander marrying a Belgian. Some immigrant populations still have more closed cultures where they select marriage partners from their own culture and religion; in the Netherlands those are typically the Turkish, Moroccan. and Indonesian communities where intermarriage is 1%, 2% and 3% respectively.
In the other main non-European immigrant populations (Netherlands Antillies, Suriname, Iran and Iraq), the percentage of intermarriage is higher; 9%, 5%, 6% and 10% respectively.
The total percentage of mixed marriages is 5%, and this is in a country with HALF the percentage of non-Northern Europeans when compared to the USA, and the figure exludes all mixed-race marriages between people born in the Netherlands, so the relative level of intermarriage is far higher.
In the UK 7.1% of the population are non-white. That is a quarter of the percentage in the USA. The percentage of mixed marriages is 1.3% of the total. The relative level of intermarriage is not as impressive as Holland's, but is still higher than the USA's.
http://www.coe.int/T/E/Social_Cohesion/Population/Pop38%20Demo%20chr%20immig%20pops%20eng.pdf
The statistics for the Netherlands are particulary thorough, which should come as no suprise to anyone who knows the Dutch. They're better than the UK's and the USA's. Enjoy. Oh, sexism is a different subject; try to succesfully defend your argument in the face of the figures I've supplied before muddying the waters.
All of this is without mentioning the rather unpleasent truth. With the UK and the Netherlands we are talking about an IMMIGRANT population, by-and-large. Before WWII these were tiny. They've grown hugely, and although there have been problems, they are integrating.
With the USA, even if one assumes ALL the Latin population are recent immigrants, that means the other half of the non-European population have LESS integration despite the fact they are NOT recent immigrants. It's not even 30 years since it was illegal to marry a person of a different race in some parts of your country.
Despite being as American as white Americans black Americans lag behind their European counterparts (who are only second or third generation immigrants) in terms of equality with the majority population.
And I seem to have lost the source of the 4% I quoted for the USA; I can only find a figure of 2.5% (U.S. Bureau of the Census, 1997).
So, as much as you'd like to portray your country, or Europe in general, as so racially supportive/tolerant, as opposed to the US, you are providing NO proof.
Yeah, right... let's list them;
- The percentage of non-Northern European population of the USA is four times larger than the UK's and twice as large as the the Netherlands.
- More than half of this population are not recent immigrants, whereas almost all of this population in UK and Holland are recent
immigrants. - The level of intermarriage in the USA is about half in absolute terms and a quarter in relative terms than in Holland. Compared to the US in the UK it is lower in absolute terms but is almost four times higher in relative terms.
- The non-Northern European population of the USA that are not recent immigrants does not have the same degree of religious or cultural distincitveness that the more recent immigrant communities in Europe have, which would lead one to expect a higher degree of intermarriage if integration was truely occuring.
- Black men in the USA earn less than white men - and these aren't immigrants from developing countries who did not have access to a modern education system when younger (which is why comparison of black vs. white salaries in Holland and the USA is not meaningful; most black people in the USA should have access to the same educational opportunites as white people).
- In the USA a black man is more likely to be executed for the same crime as a white man.
If that's not proof that the USA has MORE problems with race than Europe to sort out, I don't think anything would convince you.
There's my "eloquence" "backed up". I await your reply with interest.
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Simon
I would like apologize for my fellow americans Apologize for your own sorry butt. You don't represent "Americans."
Exactly ... and the people making racist remarks don't represent Europeans Would it be fair to put up reports of a black man killed by being dragged behind a car and claim that it mean Americans were racist? -
Abaddon
blacksheep:
It would be nice if you replied blacksheep. Or is this how you deal with your opinion differing from the facts? By ignoring it? If I'm wrong, by all means, show me...
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blacksheep
As for statistics, in the Netherlands, 1 in 8 of marriages involve at least one partner not of Dutch birth.
Obviously not all of these are racially mixed; that would include a native Nederlander marrying a Belgian.
Sorry I didn't race to reply--I know that everyone's eagerly watching this thread and on pins and needles.
The above stat you throw around simply PROVES my point. Oh, so the oh so tolerant Dutch only marries another Dutch person 88% of the time? Whoa, just blows me away. Sure, that non-Dutch person is another Northern European, but STILL!
Your JW hopscotch logic to try to use marital stats, population stats, and whatever you can throw together to "prove" Europe is more "racially tolerant" than the US is a total joke and unworthy of any sort of deep analysis.
Thanks for giving me a laugh for the day. I needed it.
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Realist
black,
do you think the US is more tolerant than europe (which part)? if so what do you base this on?
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Sassy
It's ironic.. I just got done arguing with a man on another board (NON JW related) from Europe.. because he made the claim that white american women do not understand the culture of the Black man.. which pissed off a whole bunch of women on that board.. What I don't understand is when people make judgement calls about races and other countries when they really have little experience with those people to base those judgements on..
Human nature I guess....
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blacksheep
do you think the US is more tolerant than europe (which part)? if so what do you base this on?
I don't think there should be any contest about who's the more "tolerant," ; it's totally subjective and truly impossible to prove.
What did take me by surprise while living in Europe and working with many different nations was the more overt nationalism I say. For example, when an issue came up in business with France which I was trying to facilitate my British boss made the comment "I'm tired of the French riding on British coat-tails." When working with the Germans, several of the Brits refused to productively work with the Germans, because they said "they've want to to things their way, and thier way only. It was clear talking with people from each country, each thought they did things the right way. Beligians didn't like the Dutch who didn't like the Belgians who had disdain for the Germans who didn't like Southern Europeans.
Bottom line, living in PC California, you just don't see that type of overt "my nation is the best" comments. Probably because whatever nation people were originally from doesn't really matter. Now they're all Americans.
I'm not saying there aren't probelms here; of course there are. But my perception is that there seems to be a higher level of national/ethnic intolerance in Europe. My take on Europe was that everyone gets along because they MUST geographically, not because they should.
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Realist
black,
My take on Europe was that everyone gets along because they MUST geographically, not because they should.
sadly that is true. the countries don't love each other but just tolerate each other.
But my perception is that there seems to be a higher level of national/ethnic intolerance in Europe.
here i would disagree. US citizens are very nationalistic/patriotic (at least compared to what i was used to before i came to the US). but than again i have only lived in sweden and austria before i moved to NY.
ethnic intolerance exists in both societies. what are the mexicans (or other latin americans) for you are the south east europeans for us. most low level jobs in the US are done by black or hispanic people...in europe its jugoslavians or people from turkey. both ethnic groups (the priviliged and the none previliged) don't think highly of each other (same in the US).
Bottom line, living in PC California, you just don't see that type of overt "my nation is the best" comments. Probably because whatever nation people were originally from doesn't really matter. Now they're all Americans.
yes of course...you have to compare the relationship between european countries with the relationship between the US and mexico, canada, france etc.
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blacksheep
ethnic intolerance exists in both societies. what are the mexicans (or other latin americans) for you are the south east europeans for us. most low level jobs in the US are done by black or hispanic people...in europe its jugoslavians or people from turkey.
True, but the reason for this is largely due to education/training, not because of inherent racism. This has been acknowledged to be an issue, hence Afirmative Action programs have been designed to help address the disparity in education/training. No, we are not there yet by any means, by the gap is starting to narrow.
Esp with the illegal immigration controversy, there's been considerable discussion as to Mexicans willing to work at much lower wages than American citizens will. The same holds true often even among Mexican-Americans who are legal citizens.
While it doesn't mean that racism isn't a problem, you have to dig a little deeper when you see econmic stats.