"Oh Europe's So Racially Tolerant"

by ColdRedRain 46 Replies latest social current

• 

  blacksheep

  here i would disagree. US citizens are very nationalistic/patriotic (at least compared to what i was used to before i came to the US). but than again i have only lived in sweden and austria before i moved to NY.

  As I said, I'm from CA, where things are pretty liberal and we have major diverse populations, so much so that white Americans will soon be in the minority (if we're not already). I've never lived in New York, so maybe you picked up on something I haven't (but that seems to be a major melting pot, too.)

  IMO, I don't really see Sweeden to be representative of a racially/ethnically tolerant nation, since their population is so homogenous--in other words, the issue would rarely come up. I don't believe too many blacks or other racial/ethnic groups live in Australia, but I'm not the expert. Never met an Aussie I didn't love, though.
• 

  talesin

  I know that you all will be as shocked as I was by this story.

  We went to visit friends in Decatur, Georgia (a suburb of Atlanta, which has a huge black population). While we were chatting over supper, I mentioned that I had seen no blacks in the neighbourhood. My host replied,

  "Well, they have their own place, in the inner city. They do not have the intelligence that we do, so they cannot rise above their circumstances."

  I kid you not!!!! So, racism is alive and well. Needless to say, that was the last communication I had with those people!

  And it still exists here, as well.

  talesin
• 

  Realist

  black,

  As I said, I'm from CA, where things are pretty liberal and we have major diverse populations, so much so that white Americans will soon be in the minority (if we're not already). I've never lived in New York, so maybe you picked up on something I haven't (but that seems to be a major melting pot, too.)

  i have to say i picked up on pretty bad ethnic tensions. when the black guy was accidentially shot by police (with 40 bullets or so) it was close to a riot. the situation seems calm but the ethnic groups dislike each other.

  i would be surprised if it is different in any US city. 8 years ago or so there were huge riots in LA. when you talk with black people they feel very underprevileged. white people on the other hand think that too much is done for the black people (affirmative action etc.).

  melting pot sounds good....but the problem is what ever is in the pot it doesn't mix.

  I don't really see Sweeden to be representative of a racially/ethnically tolerant nation, since their population is so homogenous

  thats what i thought before i moved here...in fact they have a huge percentage of people from southern countries. less black people but many muslims (turkey mostly) and jugoslavians, rumanians etc.

  I don't believe too many blacks or other racial/ethnic groups live in Australia

  i was talking about austria in europe not australia :)

  what i hear australia is very restrictive in terms of immigration. but i have never been there so i can't really say what the opinion of the people is.
• 

  blacksheep

  was talking about austria in europe not australia :)

  Doh!

  I didn't know that about Sweden--interesting.

  I think in the US there are indeed pockets of racism; I just don't thing it's true everywhere. We've got a long ways to go.
• 

  Abaddon

  blacksheep

  Sorry I didn't race to reply--I know that everyone's eagerly watching this thread and on pins and needles.

  Oh, I didn't know you needed an audience to make it worthwhile replying.

  The above stat you throw around simply PROVES my point. Oh, so the oh so tolerant Dutch only marries another Dutch person 88% of the time? Whoa, just blows me away. Sure, that non-Dutch person is another Northern European, but STILL!

  blacksheep, either you have a very unusual approach (i.e. 'wrong') to statistical analysis or you didn't read either my post or the URLs I linked to. You have missed what the statistics point to entirely you're so eager to keep your opinion as it is.

  Adjusting for the percentage of non-white people in the country (as there can only be as many mixed marraiges as there are peopl of different race to the majority), both the Netherlands and the UK have around FOUR times as many mixed marriages as the USA.

  Almost all of these are with immigrants or the children or grandchildren of recent immigrant where differences between cultures are magnified.

  Despite the fact that most of the non-white people in the USA are not recent immigrants, and that therefore the gross cultural, religious and linguistic differences that can characterise recent immigrants are not present, in the US intermarriages occur far less frequently, although there is far more opportunity for intermarriage given the higher number of non-whites.

  If you can fault the summery of the statistics I give above, so so explicitly; currently it looks like you just don;t understand them and are bluffing.

  What did take me by surprise while living in Europe and working with many different nations was the more overt nationalism I say.

  You are simply hysterical. America is the most nationalistic country in the developed world. Do you not read some of the threads here?However, as your first point in this discussion seems to be 'The USA is better' (no matter what the facts may be, as this discussion illustrates), I doubt if you'd conceed this even if you've been demonstrating it.

  For example, when an issue came up in business with France which I was trying to facilitate my British boss made the comment "I'm tired of the French riding on British coat-tails." When working with the Germans, several of the Brits refused to productively work with the Germans, because they said "they've want to to things their way, and thier way only. It was clear talking with people from each country, each thought they did things the right way. Beligians didn't like the Dutch who didn't like the Belgians who had disdain for the Germans who didn't like Southern Europeans.

  Hang on. You are now talking about cultural sterotypes being alive and well in Europe. They are. We are less PC in Europe than the USA. But there is no bar on intermarriage between white Europeans formed by these stereotypes. At least 1 in 20 'native' Dutch marriages are with non-whites, 1 in 13 are with white non-Dutch. The stereotypes are mostly used for humourous effect. Those that put any weight to them are those who've not met any people of the stereotype they believe is really valid. And the existence of cultural stereotypes in a culturally diverse continent (unlike the virtual monoculture of the USA) is not surprising. Add in the fact you have stereotypes about people from different states in the USA, and your argument is non-existant.

  Bottom line, living in PC California, you just don't see that type of overt "my nation is the best" comments. Probably because whatever nation people were originally from doesn't really matter. Now they're all Americans.

  I know Califronia is different as the first thing the Californians we have come over here on business do is apoloigise for American foreign policy. Seems I've been to more of the US than you have, by the way. It ain;t all like that. Not even in California... If you look at your country as a whole, it is less pretty; and you've still not explained the difference between white and black salary levels or the difference between sentence outcomes.

  But, if you don't like the facts, you're quite free to believe what you like.

  I don't really see Sweeden to be representative of a racially/ethnically tolerant nation, since their population is so homogenous--

  You are making the mistake of thinking having lots of ethnically diverse people means a country is racially tolerant. South Africa had LOADS of ethnically diverse people; it wasn't racially tolerant. 'Tolerant' is someone's colour not mattering, no matter whether their colur represents 1%, 5% or 30% of the population.
• 

  blacksheep

  Adjusting for the percentage of non-white people in the country (as there can only be as many mixed marraiges as there are peopl of different race to the majority), both the Netherlands and the UK have around FOUR times as many mixed marriages as the USA.

  Almost all of these are with immigrants or the children or grandchildren of recent immigrant where differences between cultures are magnified.

  Despite the fact that most of the non-white people in the USA are not recent immigrants, and that therefore the gross cultural, religious and linguistic differences that can characterise recent immigrants are not present, in the US intermarriages occur far less frequently, although there is far more opportunity for intermarriage given the higher number of non-whites.

  If you can fault the summery of the statistics I give above, so so explicitly; currently it looks like you just don;t understand them and are bluffing.

  What did take me by surprise while living in Europe and working with many different nations was the more overt nationalism I say.

  You are simply hysterical. America is the most nationalistic country in the developed world. Do you not read some of the threads here?However, as your first point in this discussion seems to be 'The USA is better' (no matter what the facts may be, as this discussion illustrates), I doubt if you'd conceed this even if you've been demonstrating it.

  For example, when an issue came up in business with France which I was trying to facilitate my British boss made the comment "I'm tired of the French riding on British coat-tails." When working with the Germans, several of the Brits refused to productively work with the Germans, because they said "they've want to to things their way, and thier way only. It was clear talking with people from each country, each thought they did things the right way. Beligians didn't like the Dutch who didn't like the Belgians who had disdain for the Germans who didn't like Southern Europeans.

  Hang on. You are now talking about cultural sterotypes being alive and well in Europe. They are. We are less PC in Europe than the USA. But there is no bar on intermarriage between white Europeans formed by these stereotypes.

  What "bar" exists in the US on inter-racial marriage? I know several couples who are; in fact, I have relatives who are. It's very common. But it's also common for people to marry people of their own race. Because they do so does NOT mean they are racist.

  It is you who are hysterial: using stats on who people marry to try to generate some accusation that country "x" is more "racist" that country y.

  Bottom line, living in PC California, you just don't see that type of overt "my nation is the best" comments. Probably because whatever nation people were originally from doesn't really matter. Now they're all Americans.

  ISeems I've been to more of the US than you have, by the way. It ain;t all like that.

  Whatever...back to you competiveness. I've been to more states that you can probably even name; in addition to living in Europe.

  Not even in California... If you look at your country as a whole, it is less pretty; and you've still not explained the difference between white and black salary levels or the difference between sentence outcomes.

  What's "less pretty" about? And yes, I DID provide a response to the reasons for the salary disparity, you obviously didn't read it.

  You are making the mistake of thinking having lots of ethnically diverse people means a country is racially tolerant.

  Oh, right. Your "percentage of inter-racial marriages reflects on whether a country is "racist" does. I see you pick and chose what the stats mean...

  Bottom line, if you want to "stereotype" Americans as being more "racist" than Europe, that's your problem not mine--I just don't have to buy it.

  You cannot "prove" something that is so subjective, and you certainly cannot "prove" that it applies to everyone or even most of the people.

  Regarding your take on nationalism, I swear to God while in the Netherlands, I got so fed up with their indoctrination of how "better" they are than everyone else. My relocation host kept going on and on about the culture and how they might do things differently but it's the RIGHT way. Sure seemed like the WRONG way to me. When I deal with people of another culture, I like to understand and appreciate the differences in culture, but I sure as heck to try to shove "my" way as the best way down their throats like I experienced in Holland.
• 

  Abaddon

  blacksheep

  As you seem to have forgotten, you were objecting to a characterisation of Europe as being more racially tolerant than the USA.

  I have shown, and you have failed to rebutt, that statistics show racial intermarriage occurs with greater frequency in Europe than in the USA.

  Unless you are going to claim that racial intermarriage is NOT a sign of racial tolerance and integartion, it would seem that even though you don't LIKE it, I've proved the point I was making.

  What "bar" exists in the US on inter-racial marriage?

  Now, that verges on a strawman argument. I've mever said a "bar" existed. You asking me this question is either because

  1. you don't know (doubtful)
  2. because you think I don't know (there's nothing to support this in what I've written)
  3. you're trying to bolster a weak argument by making it appear I have taken an unreasonable position by asking me a question that implies that

  I know several couples who are; in fact, I have relatives who are.

  Here you are using the agrument ad Yeru; Yeru ALWAYS knows 'someone' who 'proves' whatever poiint he is trying to make, even if it is the reverse of all previous research on the subject. This is called anecdotal evidence and means next to nothing against statistics which show patterns of behaviour in entire populations, not just people you know.

  It's very common.

  I've quoted the stats. You've not. Common? Define it.

  But it's also common for people to marry people of their own race. Because they do so does NOT mean they are racist.

  Again, you are countering arguments I have never made. You were saying Europe was less racially tolerant based on your experience. I showed statistically that there was more intermarriage than the USA, and that this and other factors such as average incomes and outcome of sentencing also showed there was still clear differentiation between races in the USA, far more so than in Europe. You have yet failed to provide any hard evidence to counter what I presented.

  Thus far your argument is akin to saying "I don't care what the statistics show, I know someone who was in a plane crash so air travel is more dangerous than car travel."

  It is you who are hysterial: using stats on who people marry to try to generate some accusation that country "x" is more "racist" that country y.

  I have defended my position with evidence. You have just refused to change your opinion despite the evidence. I note still not one comment regarding the difference in sentencing outcomes, but then it is pretty obviously indefensable.

  Whatever...back to you competiveness.

  Right back at you ignoring facts to retain an opinion; cognitive dissonance 1.01... here's some more for you to ignore...

  http://www.amnestyusa.org/abolish/reports/dp_discrimination.html

  And yes, I DID provide a response to the reasons for the salary disparity, you obviously didn't read it.

  Oh, I did; as I pointed out, you had failed to consider as young black American people have the same access to education as young white people, one would assume that employment and salary outcomes were similar. They are not. Countries where the non-white population are recent immigrants obviously include people who did not have access to such education when younger, and thus one can't realistically expect the same levels of salary.

  Bottom line, if you want to "stereotype" Americans as being more "racist" than Europe, that's your problem not mine--I just don't have to buy it.

  You don't have to buy it blacksheep, the statistics prove it. And not just the statistics;

  http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/usa/document.do?id=133746465C2D34CA8025690000692D98

  You cannot "prove" something that is so subjective,

  It's not subjective... well, your arguments have been, mine have used objective surveys.

  and you certainly cannot "prove" that it applies to everyone or even most of the people.

  Actually, demographic statistics do 'prove' what 'normally' happens to people, and how frequently other things happen too. It's the general idea...

  Also, you seem to be thinking I am saying "the average American is more racist than the average European". I'm not. I am saying that European society in the examples I have given shows (proportionately) greater integration and implies greater tolerance.

  You've yet to explain the vast (4 times) difference between intermarriage. If the USA is SO racially integrated and tolerant, why are mixed marriages so infrequent compared to places where the 'mixed' half of the realtionship is often a recent immigrant? The non-white Americans are as American as the white ones, there's no linguistic or religious difference in most cases, they've grown up watching the same TV shows, and there is STILL a massive difference. Why? Come on blacksheep...

  Regarding your take on nationalism, I swear to God while in the Netherlands, I got so fed up with their indoctrination of how "better" they are than everyone else.

  Yeah, well, as you seem to already feel that the USA is 'better' than everyone else I bet it really rubbed you up the wrong way. Funny that, people who live in a country liking living in a country and think they do things sensibly there; it's one of the things most countries have in common, didn't you know?

  My relocation host kept going on and on about the culture and how they might do things differently but it's the RIGHT way. Sure seemed like the WRONG way to me.

  Just because the Dutch do tend to a smugness (which is rich coming from an American, as the USA considers itself the greatest nation ever) doesn't mean it's a more racist society than the USA. You have yet to prove otherwise; all you do is refuse to accept statistics. As regards the smugness, on sex education, prostitution and cannabis alone they have a far more effective and harm-reducing legal system; I wonder why they are smug?