Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    EW:

    Its very clear to me that he enables himself to reject Grace.

    This is an interesting subject in it's own right, and I hope you'll bear with me whilst I digress beyond the bounds of "saving grace".

    • From a theological/biblical/mechanical perspective we would state that "saving grace" is irresistable, and would point to "God's will" being irrepressible wherever/whenever he desires to achieve something.
    • From an human/experiential perspective, however (and citing Abraham v's Sodom as a biblical example) is "appears" that we make choices of our own volition and freewill, and that God somehow accedes.

    The two camps tend to dominate these two viewpoints and make them extremes. I would stick my neck out and state that both are correct if viewed strictly from the perspective from which they come.

    As with so many things, however (and as evinced on the Spirituality thread), reality and subjective persepective may be two entirely different things.

    As for my hours, I live in the GMT timezone, and am often up after 1am.
    My work involves almost day long use of computers, and requires frequent "breaks"

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    LT

    • From an human/experiential perspective, however (and citing Abraham v's Sodom as a biblical example) is "appears" that we make choices of our own volition and freewill, and that God somehow accedes.
    The two camps tend to dominate these two viewpoints and make them extremes. I would stick my neck out and state that both are correct if viewed strictly from the perspective from which they come.

    I'm not sure I can agree, but, I see you have "appears" in quotes.

    Three frogs are sitting at the edge of a pond, two decide to jump in, how many are left? The answer is three. Two choose to jump in, but changed, their minds when they saw the big fish waiting to eat them, so they didn't go through with their choice after all. God has a way of controlling circumstances so that He gets the desired action. We do all have a will, it remains to be seen just how free it actually is. According to my bible, it's not as free as most people think. D Dog

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho

    LT:

  • From an human/experiential perspective, however (and citing Abraham v's Sodom as a biblical example) is "appears" that we make choices of our own volition and freewill, and that God somehow accedes.
    Are you suggesting that Lot chose his fate?
  • E.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    EW:

    Are you suggesting that Lot chose his fate?

    I have no doubt that it "appeared" that way from his perspective, and thus it was recorded.
    I'm merely highlighting the preoccupation of each respective camp, in this issue.

    My personal opinion currently sits that time and the material universe was created as a complete teardrop in eternity. Thus God's perspective may be that it has already happened / is happening / will yet happen.
    We're delving into the realms of speculation and philosophy here, but it's a perspective on Predestination.

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho

    LT,

    This is my problem with the choice issue.

    Gods sovereignty, how could one possibly imply that their individual choice could effect the outcome that has already occured in the the timeline of God who is not subjected to time?

    I have the same arguement for the LDs' and Jws. If God is counting on mankind to give the Gospel that saves man, we have a big problem. Not that I dont believe that the great commission is invalid, I just do not believe its man that is responsible (in the end).

    I've used the borrowed phrase 'God as a spectator' this is the Arminians' default mode. If this dilema could be explained then there would be something to talk about.

    E.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    And so, too, the eternal dichotomy of Calvinism:

    Man's Responsibility vs God's Sovereignty

  • reboot
    reboot
    Man's Responsibility vs God's Sovereignty

    the predestination that Calvinism advocates,thus creating this paradox is my personnal proof that the answers we look for cant be found within the information we're given, perhaps that's the point of all the confusion?

    If I have a view then I tend to lean towards the theory that we are supposed to create our own views and that we are being steered in the direction of hopefully realising that we have to reject following someone and perhaps leave god to find peace...using the information he's given us to move away from him and to take responsibility for our lives using the information given but by reworking it for ourselves, as a parent would do for a child.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Reboot:The idea of "weaning" is one that is often spoken of in Christian circles.
    It's a concept that you don't see directly in the bible, unless you've been "experiencing" it. Hence, I believe, few on the board are likely to have heard about it...

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    LT & Reboot

    Man's Responsibility vs God's Sovereignty

    I think the whole point here is that, according to the bible, when it comes to salvation, man has no responsibility (response ability).

    Romans 9:16

    So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

    Where does the bible say that man can choose who the true God is going to be? It's not like an election, where we vote. God is the one who elects his children. His is the only vote that counts.

    D Dog

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    DDog:
    And so we delve into the murky depths of hyper-calvinism and double-predestination.
    Yukk!!!

    So man isn't responsible for his actions?
    Ah, what a just "God" we have, then...
    ...when He condemns some to Hell...

    And so the Arminian's start to sound the more sane, after all...

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