Freedom to Choose God

by UnDisfellowshipped 774 Replies latest watchtower bible

Deputy Dog

Undisfellowshipped
Just for the record I believe:
Ephesians 1:4-12
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ
D Dog
DannyBear

Gumdi & Toe,
I must admit everything Gumman says about LittleToe sure seems to be accurate. Yes, you should be embare-assed Toe, that is probably one of the most sincere, glowing acalades I have ever read. Btw I agree with his observation.
It is so, I mean so, refreshing to have anyone respond with an open mind. Often there is simply pro & con, point blank confrontation.
Gumman you have demonstrated to me again, your ability to read people (you did a damn good job of pegging me).
Thanks for making me feel good this evening.........had a rough day.
Sincere regards to you both.
Danny
UnDisfellowshipped

DannyBear said:
Choose god but don't expect, others to make the choice based on a book whos authenticity cannot be proved.
I am absolutely convinced that the God who created our minds would not want anyone to accept anything as truth without making sure of the facts.
That was why I quoted those Scriptures, which show that the God of the Bible wants people to carefully examine the facts and then decide what the truth is.
I highly recommend doing research into the authenticity of the Bible.
If the Bible is the truth, it can stand against any and all opposition.
DannyBear said:
Ps. Iam already tired of this, because it never changes. You and others like you, who tout all this belief in Scripture, never give one iota of recognition to the alternate view. I understand you can't do it, it would take that big rafter holding up your very exsistance and rock you to your knee's.
If that is your opinion of me, then so be it.
But, I believe if you will look through my posts and threads, I have tried very hard to always get an understanding for other people's beliefs.
Even if I do not agree at all with a person's beliefs, I still love that person.
For instance, if a person believed that the earth was flat, or that the sky was red, I would still love them, even though I would not agree with their beliefs.
There is nothing that can "take the big rafter" away from me, because Jesus is real to me. He has truly changed my heart and my mind -- let's see Ghandi do that.
Ghandi may teach people, saying that they should love each other, but only Jesus can actually put the love in my heart, which He has done to a huge degree.
Before I first prayed to Jesus, I was not a very loving person. After I prayed to Jesus, I started having a huge amount of love for ALL people, including people who treat me very badly.
Personally, I think I would be insane NOT to believe in Jesus after that happened to me.
Gumby said:
It also bothers me badly that regardless of how much logical, factual, documentation that you show to "some believers", they are NO different than a dub who will not listen to, or even think about the fact that what they hold so dear, is based on falsehood. They choose not to even consider it. It's blasphemy! It's spooky! It's leaving your psuedo comfort zone that keeps you sane!
I will read and examine any information you provide about the Bible.
UnDisfellowshipped

Deputy Dog,
Thank you for your reply with Ephesians Chapter 2.
To be honest, I do need to study that Chapter some more.
I believe that the entire Bible, every Verse, is the Inspired, Spirit-Breathed, Infallible Word of God.
I believe that Christians should not ever discount or ignore ANY Verse of the Bible.
If the Bible is the Word of God, it will not have any contradictions at all -- so after careful study and examination, every Verse should fit harmoniously together with every other Verse.
Christians should not favor a certain Chapter (such as let's say, Romans Chapter 9) and then discount another Chapter (let's say 1st Timothy Chapter 2). Rather, they should study both Chapters which seem to contradict one another and then decide what the truth is.
1st Timothy Chapter 2 is not less inspired than Romans Chapter 9 is it?
2nd Peter 3:9 is not less inspired than Ephesians Chapter 2 is it?
UnDisfellowshipped

Ellderwho, I had asked you:
Please answer this: How do you fit 1st Timothy Chapter 2 in with your beliefs as stated in that quote?
Then you answered and said:
You have a stand alone scripture that your holding on to that in no way infers God is going to save all men. IMHO those verses indicate that grace is not bound by authorities, race, national background its universal "all men."
First of all, what exactly is a "stand-alone Scripture"? Isn't the entire Bible the inspired, infallible Word of God, and none of it to be discounted? Are you saying that 1st Timothy Chapter 2 is less inspired or less important than other Scriptures? I never claimed that God was going to save all men. I only claimed what the Scripture says "God [...] desires all men to be saved." (NKJV) Please look at the context: 1st Timothy 2:1 (KJV): I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men Who are the "all men" mentioned in that Verse? Now look at 1st Timothy 2:2-3: For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. Who are the "all men" mentioned there? Now look at 1st Timothy 2:6: Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Who are the "all" mentioned there? Let's look at some other Verses where the term "all" or "all men" is used, so we can figure out what it means in the majority of Verses: Isaiah 53:6: All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 2nd Corinthians 5:14: For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead Luke 13:4: Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? Acts 17:30: And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent Acts 22:15: For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard. Romans 5:12: Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned Romans 5:18: Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. Romans 12:17-18: Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. 1st Corinthians 7:7: For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. 1st Corinthians 15:19: If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. Philippians 4:5: Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord [is] at hand. 1st Thessalonians 2:15: Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men 1st Timothy 4:10: For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. Titus 2:11: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men Titus 3:2: To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, [but] gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. James 1:5: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 1st Peter 2:17: Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king. 2nd Peter 3:9: The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. What does the term "all men" mean in the vast majority of Scriptures?
DannyBear

Undi,
This may seem harsh but here we go.....
Your entire response to me was one of justification for your ardent stand as respects the bible and ardor for Jesus. Almost like a stand up Prayer, Praise and Testimony sermon.
Upon reflection, it appears that your zeal regarding your 'faith,' is simply a reflection of the benefits you receive or have received by such declarations.
It is a common thread I have noticed among believers like yourself. Almost a mania or fixation on quoteing or red lining 'THE SCRIPTURES'...just the visualization of verse after verse, turns you guys on. It is a drug. You can't help but sniff another line, chop and disect every red letter word. It gives you guys a high. Never really caring or thinking about where the drug originated, just let me have some more. An addiction in every sense of the word.
Other symptoms of this addiction, are repetitive sayings. Preaching to the choir even. Seems like the more you repeat the same mantra, the more it's incites a rigid mindset.
Why should you even be worried about loving me? We know really nothing of each other. I really don't desire or care for that kind of 'free love'. I had 30 yrs of 'christian love' shoved down my throat. Jw's practice the same word service towards love as you just demonstrated.
Respect is what we all need, love can come later.
Drug addicts never love anyone....they are so tied up with themselves, and the feel 'good' (no hate, no worries, no guilt)......sound familiar??? that they'er chosen drug delivers, that everything and everyone around them are unimportant, only serving as eyes and ears that bolster the high obtained. I mean what's a good high without someone to show it off to.
So I don't believe one word of this so called love 'believers' tout.......it is just a result of the mind altering state of mind.
Danny
UnDisfellowshipped

Ellderwho said:
In the case of Pharoah you must assume a very very vital part of your postion.
I'm not sure what you mean. The only information I have about this Pharaoh comes from the Word of God:
Exodus 8:10: And he said, To morrow. And he said, [Be it] according to thy word: that thou mayest know that [there is] none like unto the LORD our God.
Pharaoh was "enlightened" with knowledge that God exists and that there is no true God except the LORD.
Exodus 9:16-17: And in very deed for this [cause] have I raised thee up, for to shew [in] thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth. As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?
And yet, Pharaoh still "exalted himself" against God and the Jews.
Exodus 9:27: And Pharaoh sent, and called for Moses and Aaron, and said unto them, I have sinned this time: the LORD [is] righteous, and I and my people [are] wicked.
Pharaoh even made this acknowledgement that he had sinned and that God was righteous, however....
Exodus 9:30: But as for thee and thy servants, I know that ye will not yet fear the LORD God.
Moses knew that Pharaoh was not truly fearing or believing in God, and had not truly repented.
Exodus 10:1: And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him
God did indeed "harden Pharaoh's heart". What exactly that means I am not 100% sure of. Because notice this Verse:
Exodus 10:3: And Moses and Aaron came in unto Pharaoh, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, How long wilt thou refuse to humble thyself before me? let my people go, that they may serve me.
God asks Pharaoh how long he will REFUSE to humble HIMSELF before God!
Those Verses show that Pharaoh:
1: Had received the knowledge that God exists, and that God is the ONLY True God.
2: That he (Pharaoh) was a sinner and that God was righteous.
3: That he had his heart "hardened" by God.
4: That Pharaoh kept REFUSING to humble HIMSELF before God.
What does the word "refuse" mean?
Merriam-Webster Definition:
1 : to express oneself as unwilling to accept <refuse a gift> <refuse a promotion>
2 a : to show or express unwillingness to do or comply with <refused to answer the question> b : DENY <they were refused admittance to the game>
The very definition of "refuse" means that a person was given A CHOICE!
UnDisfellowshipped

DannyBear said:
Undi,
This may seem harsh but here we go.....
Your entire response to me was one of justification for your ardent stand as respects the bible and ardor for Jesus. Almost like a stand up Prayer, Praise and Testimony sermon.
Upon reflection, it appears that your zeal regarding your 'faith,' is simply a reflection of the benefits you receive or have received by such declarations.
It is a common thread I have noticed among believers like yourself. Almost a mania or fixation on quoteing or red lining 'THE SCRIPTURES'...just the visualization of verse after verse, turns you guys on. It is a drug. You can't help but sniff another line, chop and disect every red letter word. It gives you guys a high. Never really caring or thinking about where the drug originated, just let me have some more. An addiction in every sense of the word.
Other symptoms of this addiction, are repetitive sayings. Preaching to the choir even. Seems like the more you repeat the same mantra, the more it's incites a rigid mindset.
Why should you even be worried about loving me? We know really nothing of each other. I really don't desire or care for that kind of 'free love'. I had 30 yrs of 'christian love' shoved down my throat. Jw's practice the same word service towards love as you just demonstrated.
Respect is what we all need, love can come later.
Drug addicts never love anyone....they are so tied up with themselves, and the feel 'good' (no hate, no worries, no guilt)......sound familiar??? that they'er chosen drug delivers, that everything and everyone around them are unimportant, only serving as eyes and ears that bolster the high obtained. I mean what's a good high without someone to show it off to.
So I don't believe one word of this so called love 'believers' tout.......it is just a result of the mind altering state of mind.
It did seem a bit harsh, yes.
When I talk about "love" for others, this is what I mean (watch out, here come some Scriptures):
"whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 7:12)
Then Jesus answered and said: "A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.' So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?" And he said, "He who showed mercy on him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise." (Luke Chapter 10)
" ... I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away. [...] I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you [...]" (Matthew Chapter 5)
"Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise. But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you." (Luke Chapter 6)
LittleToe

Undis:
I hate doing in with the heavy scriptures, because so often words that ring of truth are sufficient, and if it's a bible quote it's usually fairly obvious where it's from, however:
John 14:6
Jesus said to him: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Hebrews 4:12, 13
For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart. And there is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting.
My point being?
IMHO the "Word" isn't just a collection of writings.
The "Truth" isn't, either.
To raise the "Bible" to the status of "God" is blasphemous.
To that end I would state that my "faith" is in "God", not the Bible or an organization.
An individual can "believe" the Bible, or a denomination's doctrines, but that's a different thing altogether.
On an aside (because I'm on a pedantic roll ), touching "love", it's the Holy Spirit that places the love within your heart. Love is but a fruit of "Him". Christ becomes the focus of "that" love, as He does the focus of "faith".
The quotes that you use regarding ""love of enemies" are often used by JW's and Christians alike.
Do you genuinely "love" them with such heart yearning that you would willingly suffer for them?
I have to confess that Ghandi appears to have done that to a far greater degree than most Christians I know.
Oh that we would truly know "fellowship with the sufferings", as the Church in the likes of China, is acutely aware.
I hope you don't feel these musings harsh, as that isn't the intent, and I apologise if that's the case.
Love ya, bro ((()))
I fellowship in a very strictly Presbyterian area of Scotland, where words and phraseology are picked on very quickly.
I often make mistakes, but it does lend itself to sharpening up the way you express yourself.
ellderwho

Undis,
You are taking 1Tim. and developing your doctrine from it. Without considering what that does to the rest of the Bible re: Election, predestination. So you hang on this verse (stand alone verse) as no other part of scripture can contradict this idea you have of the 1Tim 2.
Yes 1Tim2 is inspired. You quote alot of "all men" references which some IMHO mean that literally "all men" in other cases it does not. Your trying to cloud the issue of all men in 1Tim2. "All men" in 1Tim2 cannot fit the rest of "all men" references in the entire Bible.
Why no answers for my questions to you about Paul????
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand ; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from thebody of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Was Paul "enlightened" when he wrote this?
When Paul confesses he is not practicing what he would like to do, is that sinning Gods will?
What about Pauls statement in Galatians? How does this fit with your understanding of 1Tim2??
15 But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased 16 to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood
What about Ephesians???
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
How does this fit with your understanding of 1Tim 2??
Ellderwho said:
In the case of Pharoah you must assume a very very vital part of your postion.
I'm not sure what you mean. The only information I have about this Pharaoh comes from the Word of God:
Then you ignore what the Bible says in Romans 9:17,18
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh , "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP , TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
If God desires to harden a person where is your "choice"????
Was it Lazarus' choice to ponder Christs' calling to come forth from the dead ????
And 1Peter2:9,10 no answer.
9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD , A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
E.

Freedom to Choose God

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