God, they suck!!!
Did you ever unscriptually end a trial? June 1st Watchtower
by truthseeker 32 Replies latest jw friends
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XQsThaiPoes
I am not trying to pull you back in blondie. I am trying to figure out who is telling the elders use their own discretion. The watchtower is mostly silent on the link. I can't see how a people and read for example.
so the commands given to the spiritual Israelites apply also to their companions, the "great crowd" of "other sheep.
Then not look up what commands were given.
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allpoweredup
In some congregations there are elders who put non-elders under a state of trial or tribulation as when they isolate, verbally abuse, push on them, thump them or put others up to thumping or, pushing or jostling them.
The Watchtower-promoted view is that those who are put under such deliberate trials are not to harm the elders as with fistcuffs or weapons.
Doubt this if you wish, but not all elders in all congregations are peaceful but employ such abuses as part of the "theocratic warfare" training.
This is used, for example, to punish those especially disobediant, for example those allowed to come back to the organization who once left it and who must now be tested extra thoroughly, persons who may be apostates or are such free-thinkers they might as well be, someone whom an elder believes has beaten upon him or another elder verbally, and the like.
Those congregations much into this often do not do the testing of the person while he or she is in their own kingdom hall but send a letter or orally recommend to the next congregation that the person moves to to do the testing or trying of the person. While at the original hall they may be very well or extra well treated.
Upon moving they are put under trial or testing. The person may, if lucky, be told something like "sometimes a person with a dental cavity needs a dentist. The dentist drills and the person hurts but in the long run there is a reward provided you stick with the dentist. At the time you may not appreciate the drilling, but in the long-run you receive something much better."
The tested person, according to what they will hear from the platform and magazines, must simply bear any verbal slights, isolation, physical actions and the like or peacefully do something such as not attend locally.
Talks may also, however, be given encouraging all hearers to stay at all hall even if put under trial by others including, of course, the testing elders.
The ultimate goal in such cult reasoning is to test persons, cause them to "grow" in the fullness of Christian maturity, produce good fruits of repentance (person lies on bed praying loudly to Jehovah asking Why, oh, why am I treated this way?), etc.
Elders in other groups including LDS and the like also do such "tried and proven" tactics. Although some readers here will say they never had it to happen to themselves or others they know, not even after being a JW (or LDS or whatever) for generations and around many JWs, others know what I am telling you here is factual. There are also elders (and their partners) who are pedophiles and wiretap their flock to hear what's being said, fearing word will get out.
Supposedly doing this is a fool-proof system for keeping out pedophiles, apostates etc, but when the elders doing it are themselves anti-God pedophiles or protecting murderers and the like, then the system is not only illegal but it is also not fool-proof - more like an ugly gaping hole.
Some readers may think only 1% of kingdom halls has such strange burning trials by fire going on but remember that there may be a pedophile is every fourth or so kingdom hall (most often, as news clippings prove, elders themselves), and then you realize there may easily be 25% or so of kingdom halls.
Brooklyn's Service Desk trains people to treat the mother organization as a real nation. In the Awake they teach to turn in fellow believers suspected of being anti-mother or Watchtower, even if they work in, for example, a doctor's or district attorney's office and come upon information showing the JW has done something the Watchtower Society is against although it is okay according to secular law "worldly authorities."
I have been so abused and have seen it done to others. Call me a liar if you wish but it is true.
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Undaunted Danny
ALLPOWEREDUP; YOU ARE NOT ALONE MATE. KANGAROO COURTS
a.k.a. GESTAPO TACTICS:
A few minutes, from my final judicial hearing..
A glossary of the watchtower's canon of ethics..Also known as; 'approved operating procedure' [ A.O.P.]
It's all about control the; Control Freaks with a Mean Streak!
Jehovahspeak=doublespeak. Carefully crafted cult rhetoric..JWessse..The articulator manipulators..
It's plain old: mealy mouthing, innuendo / deception / flim-flam / hoodwink / bamboozle / fraud / mind games / confidence game / blowing smoke and bluster / pushing your buttons....
Dumb and dumber,the "dumb-down take down".
Your foe feigns ignorance..This is a Theocratic warfare tactic, where after prayer to god..The elder sitting in judgement of you,LIES and asserts he doesn't have a clue about what you are talking about...Also known as, "selective alzheimers".
The notorious,"TWO WITNESS TAKEDOWN" this absurdity,is an over extension of; 2 Corn. 13:1....It is a subterfuge, ruse so the cult charlatans can selectively ignore evidence at their whim...
The ambush, surprise and swarm technique , a.k.a.'ambush journalism'.{perfected by Mike Wallace of 60 minutes}..This ploy is used by wolf pack predators to quarry their prey by confusion and isolation..This strong arm tactic is like the lions loud roar to 'unhinge' and intimidate their prey.
The above is also known as the ,"gang bang". or 3rd degree interrogation tactic.
The use of a ,'straw man' as the,'fall guy' to divert attention from the real issue at hand, and to try to erode an otherwise valid argument.This is a variation of the age old ,drawing of a red herring, diversionary tactic..
Stonewalling,,sandbagging,,foot dragging,,pigeonholing,,suppression of crucial evidence,under the guise of the ubiquitous ,'confidentiality clause'.
Threatbaiting ,which is to instill a presumptuous pretext of guilt,that you are a malefactor.Example:..."if you ever hit my mother, I will surely press charges against you.."
Malicious 3rd degree style interrogation tactics with abuse recriminations.
The following is an elder specialty:
This goodie must flow right down from the ivory tower legal whores. [ever wonder what elders learn when they go off to their exclusive elder seminars??} It's the, deflection "JEOPARDY GAME"!.
Framing false accusations in the form of a QUESTION..Example,"Brother Haszard we were "asked" if you were a faggot? When we were "asked" if you were a faggot.We said no!.
This sleazy tactic is a subterfuge to isolate them from court depositions.{so you can't actually pin them down on their say-so's.This is just a variation of the age old ,'loaded question' or rhetorical question..
Oh, and let's not omit the passive/aggressive good cop bad cop routine.
The legalese, AD HOMINEM attack {mud slinging] see my home page. www.DannyHaszard.com
Godlessness in the last days @ 2 timothy 3:1-9,described by St. Paul...
"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days, people will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive,.....ungrateful, unholy, without love, unyielding, unforgiving, slanderous, without self control, brutal, not lovers of good, treacherous, rash, conceited,....'having a form of godliness but denying it's power'....Men who worm their way into your homes....swayed by all kinds of evil desires....men of depraved minds who reject the truth...
Golly,my gosh!..It sounds like, 'show time' at one of my elders meetings!
The flunky elders from the Rockland Massachusetts Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses Summer street Rockland Massachusetts USA. 02370
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XQsThaiPoes
I don't believe you are lying. You are describing Hazing. Hazing is still common in amany "elite" groups even though people have fought to root it out of the years. My problem is where is this crap comming from? It sure is not in the printed watchtower. Do the elders get an elders edition every two weeks or something? WHy would a person follow an unwriten rule blindly?
Also if anyone has any other info on why members of the GC are DFed or how you were "tested" feel free to post.
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Purza
I asked an elder once "how long do I have to wait on Jehovah?". He replied "as long as it takes. you know, sometimes the answer to your request is no." This was when I desperately wanted to marry a witness and I was praying for a mate. I used to ask myself "why would Jehovah say no when he knows this is something that I want so bad". Why? It just didn't make sense. It still doesn't make sense. I left and I found the most wonderful man -- is that how my prayer got answered? I don't know and I don't care. If that means I don't have faith. . . . then so be it.
Purza
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blondie
WHy would a person follow an unwriten rule blindly?
First, JWs are taught that the GB are the FDS and have been given all authority on earth as the only channel to Bible understanding.
Second, Q, you need to read some books. I recommend
True Believer by Eric Hofer
and
Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan
where they explain the psychology behind following unwritten rules blindly.
Blondie
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Eyebrow2
that just makes my blood boil!
how many poor JW families are out there, that refuse to go to a food pantry because it is run by a church?
How many refuse to buy clothes at the salvation army or maybe other things they need because that is a church?
We were really poor growing up, and a very large family. My mother sometimes would be able to get food stamsps as needed, but we could have gotten more if she had been willing to go to a church pantry. But her conscious would not let her.
We survived...but it makes me think of worse off families forced to wait on Jehovah.
How about the country, was in it the 60 or 70s, I think it was Malowi? The brothers were actually being killed for not joining a political party. Now, there was only ONE party, so what the hell did it matter if you joined....but the bastards back at the wtbs....they would not allow! It makes me sick.
So basically. God forbid any JWs be able to figure out a way to end their trials......I think one of the big problems is that many JWs are Crisis Christians...when things are bad they cling to the "truth" and when things get better, when they have the time and energy and brain power to THINK FOR THEMSELVES...they look at the religion and say...what they hell am I doing???
Keep the peeps addicted to waiting on Jehovah and they will need the KH and the elders..... -
mustang
Allpoweredup (XQ, pay attention)
"In some congregations there are elders who put non-elders under a state of trial or tribulation as when they isolate, verbally abuse, push on them, thump them or put others up to thumping or, pushing or jostling them."
I haven't heard the thumping thing in a while. It was mentioned once here that I recollect and generally denied. But I was physically threatened by a rather "rough and tumble" up & coming MS wannabee after I started the "slow drift" out. I just smiled, kept on trucking and left on my own steam and timetable. And I didn't cut my hair, either.
"I have been so abused and have seen it done to others. Call me a liar if you wish but it is true."
Well hidden, but its there; I agree.
"Brooklyn's Service Desk trains people to treat the mother organization as a real nation. In the Awake they teach to turn in fellow believers suspected of being anti-mother or Watchtower, even if they work in, for example, a doctor's or district attorney's office and come upon information showing the JW has done something the Watchtower Society is against although it is okay according to secular law "worldly authorities." "
Now, if you look closely at the documents that have been posted here about DF'ing you will see some interesting things. I am talking about the ones that show letters written by the Legal Department to those who attempt lawsuits after the fact. These are incredibly difficult to find, but they have appeared on this forum.
What you will find is that tens of pages of LEGAL PRECEDENTS are quoted (forget scriptures, the Judge won't spend any time with them, even if he allows you to waste yours with them). The summary of all this case law is that the "courts of the land" (hereinafter known as Secular Courts) do not touch INTERNAL MATTERS OF CHURCHES. These are handled by what is known as Church Law. This is a term that harks back for over a thousand years to the Cannon Law of Holy Roman Empire & what became the Roman Catholic Church.
The Church is allowed to have its "religious tribunal" to handle such INTERNAL CHURCH AFFAIRS almost totally AS IT SEES FIT. (Human sacrifice is not allowed. And that is about where they draw the line.) The Secular Court Judge won't touch an INTERNAL CHURCH MATTER with YOUR body parts; don't even expect him to use his!!!
Read enough of this and you will see such "legal opinions" as "we are not qualified to pass judgment on this matter" and "? this is not a matter for our jurisdiction". In other words, if you struck out with the boys over I the back room of your Church, we can't sort it out for you. YOU HAVE NO RECOURSE HERE?
Why?? Because this is a matter for you, your Church and GOD. We aren't getting in the middle of this one. (If no CRIMINAL LAW was violated, leave us alone; you have a CIVIL "cause of action" you say??? It's been tried and? er, look, leave us alone, cause we leave the Churches alone. You probably won't even get started. And we taught the lawyers to leave these alone in school; they don't pay us for this.
What this amounts to is what I term the CHURCH LAW SHIELD. It pretty much makes churches "judgment proof" on their own "turf". You gots to catch them going over the line somewhere else.
In essence, you will find, (after digesting a ton of these "opinions", precedent and case law) that the Secular Courts actually view the Churches as AMBASSADORS OR REPRESENTATIVES OF ANOTHER GOVERNMENT!!!! Yes, they are according the Churches almost as the credential'd Ambassador of France or Germany to the US government. This is what they mean by "not our jurisdiction" (the legalese for
"not my job, man").So, you have NO EARTHLY RECOURSE left. That leaves you and the Church body/eLDERS AND (drum roll, please) tah-dah: GOD!!!!
So, you struck out with the FIRST Church: if there is a SECOND Church, then the same hocus-pocus applies. The Secular Courts will leave this all alone again: they aren't getting their hands dirty with a TWO-CHURCH CATFIGHT!!!! They will really leave that one to Church1/Church2/GOD!!!!
So, if you don't like the way you are treated at the first watering-hole, find another watering-hole. MAKE YOUR OWN IF YOU HAVE TO!!!! EVEN IF YOU ARE A "CHURCH OF ONE" YOU NOW HAVE THE SAME LEGAL RIGHTS AS THE FIRST ONE. Just don't break any CRIMINAL LAWS.
Church Law or Ecclesiastical Law has been discussed (with case law references) in several places. Here is one: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/23882/1.ashx
There is at least one more that is different and has a better set of legal references.
Now, XQ, your next question is best addressed by discussing "Dual Opposing Doctrines"; which we will do AFTER I find that $%%&*@ DISCLAIMER!!!
Mustang
OK, this one will do:
DISCLAIMER: Everything that I write or utter is protected by the United States Constitution as Freedom of Religion under the 1 st Amendment's "Free Exercise Clause" and the Freedom of Speech clause or other references within that document.
This does not constitute legal advice. Seek appropriate counsel for such matters.
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mustang
XQ
"I don't believe you are lying. You are describing Hazing. Hazing is still common in amany "elite" groups even though people have fought to root it out of the years. My problem is where is this crap comming from? It sure is not in the printed watchtower. Do the elders get an elders edition every two weeks or something? WHy would a person follow an unwriten rule blindly?"
Let's get "Dual Opposing Doctrines" out on the table. This exists, also. It is the way the WTS (and other Churches for that matter) do their control mechanisms.
I will illustrate this/"make the point" by quoting some posts on this forum.
Two of those are on here and one can be referenced; the second of those two was "access restricted" for certain purposes. But I believe Amazing would confirm it, if asked. The third was a reply to me in a private communication, but I have permission to quote it.
You may find an allusion to this in a number of places in the scriptures. I am referring to "a cheating set of scales" or "two sets of books", from the Mosaic Law, among others. I like to call this selection "How WTS works":
From: mustang
To: Hornetsnest, was LoneWolf
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:10:22 -0800
http://www.jehovahs- w itness.com/6/65247/1.ashx
Read Am a zing, then und e r c over. That's a real 1-2 punch for what the WTS does!!!!
Mustang
From: Hornetsnest (was LoneWolf)
To: mustang
They nailed it, all right. That in a nutshell is the reason that I was disfellowshipped 15 years ago. I kept operating on what was written and then defending my actions by that writing. The elders would have a fit and I'd stop them cold with what it said in the publications.
Finally, they concocted charges that were bull shit from beginning to end and DF'ed me on that basis. That's why I've always told them, "If this truly is Jehovah's organization, then I will be exonerated. If it isn't, then who cares?"
Man, they hate that! LOL!
Tom
Amazing
This is the other side of the story among JWs ... and one that Ray Franz noted ... "the Watchtower has a great capacity to teach DUAL OPPOSING DOCTRINES at the same time ... to live by two standards ... and what is said in print is not what is necessarily done in practice."
Having lived a JW for a quarter century, I can attest to what he said as being the case. - Jim Whitney
undercover
"the Watchtower has a great capacity to teach dual opposing doctrines at the same time ... to live by two standards ... and what is said in print is not what is necessarily done in practice."
In print, as shown in earlier posts, inactive ones are just considered spiritually weak and need love, mercy, kindess and help from the strong. But go to a meeting or an assembly and the tone is different. Inactive ones or any that are falling off spiritually are doomed. Outside of trying to help inactive ones, the strong should be very wary of them.
This is what is hard to explain to someone who's never been a JW. They don't and won't ever understand. You can go to the index and look up what is in print, but if for years in the talks and assembly parts they say something different, that's what stays with you and programs your thinking. That's why so many here rememeber "rules" or "policys" that aren't really there, at least in print. But from the platform or from the CO or the assembly it has been spoken and a good many of people will take that as official policy. I think the WTS knows that too. That's why they harp on meeting attendance so much. If you don't read all the mags, fine, but if you're at all the meetings, that's where the real programming is.
Mustang
DISCLAIMER: Everything that I write or utter is protected by the United States Constitution as Freedom of Religion under the 1 st Amendment's "Free Exercise Clause" and the Freedom of Speech clause or other references within that document.
This does not constitute legal advice. Seek appropriate counsel for such matters.
