Famous Last Words

by You Know 57 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi You Know: I see you are still pushing your financial woes and issues. Here are some thoughts on your opening paragraph.

    You said,

    The Great Depression had more to do with shaping the character and defining the last century than any other event, except the great wars that caused and followed the Depression.

    There may be some truth here. Certainly, the great Depression of the 1870s which followed the US Civil War was very defining, at least for the USA, but I will grant the the Great Depression of the 1930s was defining. I certainly agree with you that these events you mention have had far more impact than anything claim by the WTS. The SOciety still likes to claim that their message and preaching work had a serious worldwide impact, when the facts show that their little programs have been barely noticed up to that time.

    You continued,

    The structure of the financial system though has radically changed since that time, in that it is many times larger, global in fact, and it is much more fragile and complex, in that it reacts nearly instantaneously to various factors.

    The rapid reaction is not due to the complexity, but to the electronic age where information and messaging can be transmitted quickly. I admit that the finabcial system is more interdependent than ever on a worldwide scale. But, I believe that this will actually strengthen and stabilize the planetary financial markets. Will there be humps and bumps? Yes, but that is normal, and needs to happen in cycles to allow for free market dynamics.

    You continued,

    The average person is now much more dependent upon and indebted to the system as well. For instance, back in the 30's half the population was still living in rural areas and had a degree of self-sufficiency.

    Back in the 1930s and prior it was more difficult to get financing. Yes, the average person is indebted more today, but this balances out. For example, if the system went into a Depression, then personal bankruptcies go way up, and this debt gets discharged. This not only benefits the debtor, but also the creditor. Why?

    When, for example, a bank loans money, it can treat the performing loan as an asset. Let's say they loan a person $10,000 on an unsecured credit line. The bank can actually borrow against this performing loan, and expand their lending serives. If the $10,000 loan is paid down to say, $7,000, the bank has recovered $4,700. So, it loss will be $5,300. But, if the bank keeps the 'defaulted' loan on the books, it will have now show a $10,000 face value in the 'liability' column. This means that their assets have actually shrunk $15,300! So, when the loan is discharged in bankruptcy, the creditor regains $15,300 off of the liability column and their borrowing power and ratings go back up.

    It is not the most desirable way to do business, but in the event of a major financial downturn, this method of discharging debt is one way to reset the financial clocks. And boom, the system gets recharged and moves forward again.

    You continued,

    Society, too, was more docile and governable.

    Baloney! Far more people owned guns per capita, and people were far more stubborn and independent of government. Also, there was far less government intrusion and control in people's lives, as they would never have allowed what has evolved today.

    You continued,

    Hence, we see pictures of gaunt and desperate men standing patiently in soup lines to get their daily ration.

    My dad stood in those lines in Chicago. They had little choice. And I recall my dad saying that the public, the average American was determined to build an economy that would never go hungry again. And so far, they have succeeded. And other nations have benefitted from the worldwide economic growth since then. Likewise, since Communism is discredited, and the Soviet Union is gone, the Russian Republic and other former Communist nations are turning to Western Capitalism for recovery. It is a long road for them because so many theories, philosophies, and attitudes need to change. But, if they stick with it, then their economies will one day be booming and help stabilize the planetary economic system. Eastern Germany is starting this rebound with help from western Gremany since their reunification. Likewise, Poland, and others are doing well.

    You continued,

    That would never happen today. The cities would go up in smoke if people miss the next meal.

    I totally disagree! First, Americans are far more patient and committed than they are given credit for. We fight and debate, but when a crisis comes around we stand together. The Gulf War saw this happen. And, while it did not have time to take effect, you may recall that then President Bush put us on a war time economy. This meant that he could rule by decree should supplies become short and the war needed more time. As it was, the overwhelming firepower of the western allies won the war in 40 something days.

    Second, Americans are NOT about to let themselves starve because of some economic rumblings or Lyndon LaRouche prophecy. Let's assume that our banking system collapsed. Then what? Bartering would beomce quite normal very fast. Yes, there wuld be some government bail out, maybe a few soup and bread lines in major cities. But, humans, regardless of nation, are resourceful and determined to survive. It would be a shock, and there would be serious problems, but we have the balls to get through it and rebuild. There is too much historical precedent to show that this would be the case.

    And most of all none of this has anything to do with Bible prophecy or WTS speculations ot your own speculations. It has everything to do with the human species surviving, and as long as this planet revolves around the sun, rotates on its axis, and the ecosystem supports life, we WILL survive. - Amazing

  • Yadirf
    Yadirf

    To Amazing

    And I recall my dad saying that the public, the average American was determined to build an economy that would never go hungry again.

    The Bible indicates that the world’s governmental system is in for a crash … a world-wide collapse. And similar to your dad’s expectations -- that there would be a determined effort by peoples to come up with a way to insure that such a thing that resulted in him standing in that soup line would never happen again -- after the future collapse (death-stroke of the 7th head of the wild beast) there will be measures taken to insure that such a devastating thing can never happen again. And what will such “measures” amount to? Nothing less than a World Government put in place, under which all nations are promised “peace and security”. And just how is such a World Government to be brought about? The Bible shows that it will come about as a result of the majority of today’s governments being willing to sacrifice their individual sovereignties and to pay allegiance to a centralized World Government. Yes, that’s the price the nations figure they will have to pay in order to guarantee that a world-wide collapse such as they will have experienced for the first time in history never happens again. Insofar as the few nations (pictured by the 3 horns that were made to fall; see Daniel 7:20) that will protest the proposition of a World Government, these, because they are in the minority (3 of the 10), will be forced to comply with the wishes of those nations who as a majority (7 of the 10) do want a World Government. Of course, "3" is no more literal than the "10" is. The 10 horns represent all existing governments, with the 3 horns simply representing a minority of those governments.

    For those with open eyes it will be noticed that the 10 horns in Revelation 13 have diadems on them, while in Revelation 17 those same 10 horns do NOT have their diadems any longer. Yes, the Bible certainly forecasts not only a collapse but an upcoming World Government (8th King) that is to follow the 7th King which presently reigns. Because we of today live during the very time during which the foretold 7th King has made the scene, it is possible therefore that we may be the very generation that will witness the collapse … and also that which will come on its heals, namely a short-lived World Government.

    My fifty bucks worth.

    Yadirf

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    You Know,

    So how do you rate this fella? http://econ.bu.edu/king/

    Englishman.

    ..... fanaticism masquerading beneath a cloak of reasoned logic.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Yadirf or is I invert your name it is FRIDAY! Yes, good old Friday from H20.

    I am most familiar with Bible prophecy, the WTS spin on this as well as several other religious spinners. Nevertheless, I will address your comments:

    You said,

    The Bible indicates that the world’s governmental system is in for a crash … a world-wide collapse.

    The Bible also says that there was a Flood which many religions, including the WTS incorporated believes to be a literal worldwide flood. Yet, the scientific evidence shows otherwise. In addtion, the WTS has made many prophecies based on thier own speculative spin on the Bible, ALL of which has failed to some true ... therefore, I have little confidence on the claim that the world's governments are in for a crash ... at least not in the way proposed by WTS and others.

    You continued,

    And just how is such a World Government to be brought about? The Bible shows that it will come about as a result of the majority of today’s governments being willing to sacrifice their individual sovereignties and to pay allegiance to a centralized World Government.

    In principle, I am against central government of anykind, including, but not limited to centralized religions, central civil governments, and anything that would rule the planet with absolute power such as the kingdom as proposed by the Jehovah's Witness religion. Nevertheless, as the human species reaches out into space travel, it will be simply a matter of time before we contact races and species from other planets, albeit, a long way off in the future. However, by learning to work together under a loose confederation aka the UN, or similar world body where treaties, trade, finance, and other cooperative laws are needed, then so be it. This will prepare us for future operations to meet our planetary needs for the present, and prepare us in the event we do contact extraterresterial civilizations.

    You continued,

    Yes, that’s the price the nations figure they will have to pay in order to guarantee that a world-wide collapse such as they will have experienced for the first time in history never happens again.

    The nations have had worldwide collapses before. If you read some good economic history you will find that the Great Depression of the 1870s affected other nations as well. The Great Depression of the 1930s was a repeat, though somewhat different. I have no doubt that we will have more serious economic downturns as time progresses, but each will have its own unique dynamics and lessons to be learned.

    You continued,

    Insofar as the few nations (pictured by the three horns that were made to fall; see Daniel 7:20) that will protest the proposition of a World Government, these, because they are in the minority, will be forced to comply with the wishes of those nations who as a majority want a World Government.

    I am not sure how you arrived at this interpretation, as it sounds different than most of the WTS material I have read over the years. Nevertheless, there is no basis to believe that this will be the outcome. Here are the possibilities, anyone of which may be correct:

    1. These ancient prophecies in Danial and Revelation could have already been fulfilled in other ways in the past.
    2. These prophecies are allegorical of different kinds of events, such as spiritual fulfillment in peoples individual lives or in the life of the Christian religion.
    3. These prophecies are the product of the same mentality that penned the Flood fable, and they have no more meaning in human history than do the strange propheciesd of Nostradamus.
    4. These prophecies could have a bearing on future human events, but they will likely be fulfilled in a time and way in which no one really expects or could speculate about.

    You continued,

    For those with open eyes it will be noticed that the 10 horns in Revelation 13 have diadems on them, while in Revelation those same 10 horns do NOT have their diadems any longer. Yes, the Bible certainly forecasts not only a collapse but an coming World Government (8th King) which is to follow the 7th King that presently reigns. Because we of today live during the very time during which the foretold 7th King has made the scene, it is possible therefore that we may be the very generation that will witness the collapse … and that which will come on its heals, namely a short-lived World Government.

    You are not the first nor will you be the last to propose that such prophecies are meant for the generation you live in. People have been applying these prophecies to their respective generations ever since the days of the Apostles. They likewise do the same with the prophecies of Nostradamus ... and so far, ALL have been 100% wrong. pehaps that should tell us that it is pointless to keep repeating the same behavior if it does not produce better results.

    This is no different than an alcoholic who drinks each time thinking he can stop before he gets drunk, but then drinks hiimself into a stupor. He keeps repeating the same behavior and gets the same drunken results. He never learns. Likewise, many religious people seem to keep falling into this same trap of prophectic speculations that never come true. Some even die for these beliefs and never realize that they have died for a fraudulant religious system.

    Amazing

  • Yadirf
    Yadirf

    Amazing

    You may as well forget it, Amazing, there's no life "out there" other than the angels and God himself.

    'Fraid yer wrong about the collapse ... the sort of collapse I referred to has NEVER happened before, because it will be a collapse that all nations experience simultaneously.

    ...I have little confidence on the claim that the world's governments are in for a crash ... at least not in the way proposed by WTS....

    Look, silly, it wasn't the WTS that made the proposal ... it was ME. Besides, the WTS don't see things this way. Are you into boozing it up again, Amazing? You know how you get after you've been keepin' company with Jack Daniels.

    Ahh, ye of little sense. You poor soul, you must be Farkel's next of kin.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Yadirf / Friday: You said,

    You may as well forget it, Amazing, there's no life "out there" other than the angels and God himself.

    I think to conclude that among the billions of stars and planets, and galaxies, that we are the only life other than God and the Angels is a bit arrogant and shortsighted.

    Can I prove that there are other material 3rd dimension carbon-based biological species out there? No, I cannot prove it. I cannot disprove it either. It does not make sense, however, for these billions of stars with planets and billions of galaxies to be floating around lifeless and void of intelligent species.

    But, then, humans once thought that the world was a flat disc and the center of the universe. They were finally forced to recognize that civilizations existed in other parts of a planet that was a globe and not the center of the universe. This is humbling, and I am betting that we are in for more humbling as we travel more and more into space. - Amazing

  • Cygnus
    Cygnus

    YK,

    Oh yeah. It's all one big illusion that I consistently have thousands of yearly clients who open up their wallets to spend their hard earned money on what usually amounts to a luxury. I'm fooling myself for having worked hard enough to overcome $20,000.00 in credit card debt to the point where I was easily approved for a mortgage last year and have paid off all my bills.

    Life sucks! I'm going to go sell my house and all my belongings, give the proceeds to the Watchtower Society and hope that God spares me from the imminent cataclysm destined to arrive upon this earth Real Soon Now!

  • sf
    sf

    This is for Robert. Why have you not responded to this post?:

    < http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=7048&site=3

    Venice and I are becoming increasingly anxious as to the reply you may have. And if you have no comment, please state so and I will drop this topic with you Mr. King. But I must say, and some are inclined to agree; your silence here is speaking volumes re: this subject...everyday.

    Sincerely, sKally

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    "A hopeful disposition is not the sole qualification to be a prophet." --Winston Churchill

    "You can only predict things after they have happened."
    --Eugene Ionesco

    . http://www.do-not-call.org

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    No risk no reward.

    I have paid my house off with my stock market gains. I was too afraid to invest in the market until I was 35 because of my doom/gloom witness mentality. Sure, I got overly optimistic like everyone did and don't have as much as I did in 1999, but hey, life ain't always up up up. If I had never taken the risk, I would have next to nothing. Now I have a house paid for and a nice nest egg.

    More risks ahead I am sure and hopefully more rewards.

    If there's no food of course, I'll be out of luck. But for now, I will enjoy a sensible yet nice life.

    Everything in moderation. I think Paul said that. One thing I agree with him on.

    hugs

    Joel

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