Famous Last Words

by You Know 57 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  larc

  YK,

  Excuse me, I think I got your history mixed up with Friday's.

  I think you do a better job of letting the Society off the prophecy hook than they do in their own writings. They tend to blame the rank and file rather than accepting the blame themselves.

  Our point of departure is the weight I put on failed prophecy. Although 120 years is not a long time in human history, it is a very long time compared to an individual life span. My mother's four aunts became involved in the 1930s. Their enthusiasm for the immediacy of the new world was undaunted. The four aunts are dead. My mother was a Witness and zealous believer. She is dead. I was raised as a Witness and was told by my friends that Argamgeddon would come before I graduated from college. They had the same sense of urgency that you do. They are all grand parents now. One has died. I am retired from college teaching. Based on the history, I have experienced, I simply do not get a sense of usrgency about much of anything anymore. What ever will be will be.
• 

  joelbear

  Hi Larc,

  I agree. What will be will be. We can affect our life with our decisions and we can affect other people's lives around us by being a positive influence. Beyond that, things are out of our control.

  Regarding doctrines vs. prophecy interpretation, You know makes it sound like the important point is that the Watchtower teaches doctrine correct but is still in the dark to some point concerning prophecy but that this doesn't really matter since we don't need to know it yet.

  However, in reality, during our lifetime as humans, the immortality of the soul, the trinity, whether Christ died on a cross or stake, etc. are basically irrelevant to our lives. But, prophetical teachings saying that the end is coming with x number of years, affects our lives immensely, health decisions, career decisions, family planning decisions, etc. This makes they prophetic teachings much more important since they are much more impactful. The rest is just filler.

  To You Know:

  Why buy gold and silver and store up food if you will be dependent on Jehovah to provide for you? I remember in ancient Israel, if faithless Israelites stores manna from day to day it became filled with worms to show them they needed to rely totally on Jehovah. When will the rely totally on Jehovah part start up again so that you don't have to store a lot of paper, as you say you have?

  If God provides, won't he provide equally to all who depend on him, or will he have to provide more to those who weren't able to store up gold, silver or food?

  Joel
• 

  reagan_oconnor

  Amazing, just to piggyback on your comment:

  Americans are far more patient and committed than they are given credit for. We fight and debate, but when a crisis comes around we stand together.

  In the last U.S. Presidential election, Americans were upset with the issues of the electoral college vs. popular vote, the recounts etc. but never did we erupt into violence. Picketing and demonstraing, yes, but never violence. We waited patiently for democracy to do its job. Some agreed with the outcome and some disagreed, but ultimately we were logical and law-abiding. Some countries would have absolutely dissolved under such circumstances.

  <waving my flag>
  Reagan

  "I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul."
• 

  You Know

  If God provides, won't he provide equally to all who depend on him, or will he have to provide more to those who weren't able to store up gold, silver or food?

  Of course he will provide. And those that had the insight to set something aside may provide for others too. The Scriptures say that "money is for a protection." The Proverbs also say that 'the shrewd one sees the calamity coming and proceeds to conceal himself, whereas the inexperinced one suffers the penalty.' So those are principles that may apply. That's why people have bank accounts and insurance policies and so forth now to protect themselves from unseen calamity and hard times. Money just has its limitations, that's all. Hard money would be more valued, It's just that so few people can ever imagine the system totally failing; paper wealth has seduced many into thinking that it will always be worth something. Y2K got some people thinking along those lines, about the possibility of the system failing, but now that its come and gone and an even greater apathy has prevailed. In the case of gold though, I don't advise others to buy it. I think if there were a period of intense inflation, yeah, the price of gold may double or triple like it did in the 70's when it spiked at nearly $1,000 an ounce, but in the case of a total crash it would be a completely different thing. Back during the Depression Roosevelt outlawed the private onwership of gold. So I would imagine that there will be some sort of gun/gold confiscation when things get ugly.

  As an aside, when the Scriptures talk about people throwing their gold and silver in the street, I don't think Jehovah had the literal metal in mind. It's just that back in Bible times paper money didn't exist. And there have been many instances when paper money has become worthless. Germany's Riechsmark comes to mind most readily. But I assure you that back in 1923 when it took a wheelbarrow full of marks to buy a loaf of bread, and the currency was so worthless that people used it to light fires in their stoves, that they were not throwing gold and silver in the streets. On the contrary, gold and silver become even more sought after when paper becomes worthless.

  One final thought: When Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, the Jews didn't throw their money in the streets either. They ate it. I seem to recall that Josephus reported that many Jews swallowed their gold in hopes of surrendering to the Romans, and upon their hoped for release, they could fetch their treasure out of the sewer. When the Romans got wind of it they started gutting the Jews and getting the gold. That's a pretty sharp contrast with those relative few surviviors who got out when the gett'n was good back in 67 when the Roman originally encamped against the city. Jehovah does indeed provide a way out for those few who are wise enough to obey him.

  / You Know
• 

  logical

  Jehovah does indeed provide a way out for those few who are wise enough to obey him.

  Let me guess... you are the prime sheep of your god, and it is your example we have to follow?
• 

  joelbear

  So Jehovah provides, but we better save some stuff up ourselves just in case?

  That seems to be a contradiction. You didn't address my point about the manna. That seems to be a lesson that not trusting fully on Jehovah is a mistake.

  Are we supposed to rely on ourselves or on Jehovah to provide?
• 

  You Know

  That seems to be a contradiction. You didn't address my point about the manna. That seems to be a lesson that not
  trusting fully on Jehovah is a mistake.

  Manna foreshadowed God's provision of Christ. Jesus said he was the true bread from heaven. God doesn't generally make pennies rain from heaven, so its really not the same. I posted some Bible principles that are relevant though. But why should I care if you go into the tribulation totally naked and unsuspecting?

  Are we supposed to rely on ourselves or on Jehovah to provide?

  Most people carry a spare tire in the trunk. It's just common sense to prepare for future adversity. I don't know of anyone that lays around expecting God to drop food into their lap. We work and save and rely on God, and Jehovah blesses our efforts if we need a little help in that area. Being prudent and shrewd doesn't mean that a person doesn't trust God. On the contrary, in my case it means that I absolutely trust that God is going to rock this world like it's never been rocked. Therefore I do what I can to prepare myself and others for that eventuality. / You Know
• 

  joelbear

  I agree with the message to be prudent and wise in taking care of ourselves. I think this is an important message.

  We should certainly not simply wait for god to fix things for us. We should build a good life for ourselves and use wisdom in preparing for the future since no one else is going to take care of us.

  Good advice YK.
• 

  larc

  Joelbear,

  I liked your discussion of the effects of beliefs. Some, e.g., the trinity, do not affect our everyday lives; others e.g., end times predictions can have severe negative effects. Thousands of JWs have been damaged by failed prophecy. Before 1975, some sold everything to pioneer and ended up in poverty. Countless others over the years were driven into poverty because of no retirement planning, including my own mother. My sister, a true believer, is ill prepared for retirement. Her husband hates his job, but will likely have to stay at it until he drops dead. The paradox is that he works in finance and should know better.

  YK,

  I don't know your age, but besides short term planning, I would suggest that you hedge your bets by setting up a retirement plan. Hundreds of thousands of JWs have not and they have suffered for it.
• 

  joelbear

  My parents bought the end is near stuff hook line and sinker.

  We lived in a rented house my whole life. My dad worked at a job he despised and at which he never made more than $25,000 a year. He made his boss a millionaire, but was happy to stay at it because he "trusted in Jehovah". His reward would come eventually in the new system when "God rocks this world". He would have the last laugh, ha ha.

  When he and mom approached retirement age they had nothing. Dad came up with the idea of raising Vidalia onions to make money. It worked great and he made enough money to put away some savings and buy some land and build them a small but comfortable house. Mom hates it there because she can't drive and is stuck miles away from friends and any entertainment. Dad sits and watches baseball games and mom reads. Of course they go out in service twice a week to tell people about the good news of the kingdom.

  Joel