Blacks can't speak English - Bill Cosby

by closer2fine 129 Replies latest jw friends

  • gitasatsangha
    gitasatsangha

    Leolaia,

    Thanks for pointing that out. Black Vernacular English is very interesting to me. It uses, in many ways, a very different set of sounds, especially on letters that would normally end in a hard or rolling r. Typically it is replaced with an "O". Also the consonant accenting is very different, almost like a tonal language. In fact if I were to say which language besides English, black vernacular dialect sounds like, I would say offhand Vietnamese or some other tonal language. People often talk about how English has been such a successful language because it is able to include and aborb so much from many other language, but with (and ill just use the word, because its easier then saying black vernacular over and over), ebonics is a bit different in that it bends english into conforming to a culture, without necessarilly dropping or altering the vocabulary a great deal. It's difficult for persons to accept the fact that slang, and ebonics are two different things, which often walk hand in hand, but not always, and not necessarilly.

    I come from East Tennessee. I was born up in the Appalachian hills, not too far from the Smokeys. There was a time when folks from there weren't much more highly regarded then African Americans are now. There is still a mindset that appalachians are foolish, lazy, cousin-screwing barbarians. Over time I have learned to control my accent until it is almost impossible to notice. Sometimes I feel bad about that, but I knew, that among persons who were not from the area, I would sound like a "hillbilly" or "white trash". In fact, my grandmother spoke english which used words that probably haven't been used elsewhere since Elizabethan or Jacobite times. She still remembered a lot of the songs that got told up in the hills as a way to pass news along. She was one of the last of the persons who actually did that, as a younger woman.

    Anyway, judging a person by their speech patterns is stupid. No one cringes when a New York Jew lapses into Yiddish, or when Bostonians supposedly mangle the language. Nor do most (I gather) think anymore of Scottish people as ignorant fools just because the rest of us can't tell what they are saying half the time. I guess I understand what Bill Cosby is trying to say, in his own Henry Higgins-esque way, but if crime and lack of economic development are what are bothering him, he needs to harp on that, and not on cultural speaking patterns.

  • Obviously Secret
    Obviously Secret

    I think I'm the main person that needs to be here since I'm one of those kids people "think" are nothing or uneducated. The parents are part of it but the education system is totally crap. I've been to a good 5 black highschools, and the teaching is so very lazy no discipline. You have to see it for yourself to believe it. I try my best to talk like an actual human being, I don't really have to try it just comes out, but I end up forcing myself to talk ghetto since I'm the only person talking like a "white guy". It's way more than just a few black kids in a small few black schools. It is a large LARGE!!!!!! percentage of black kids that think and talk this way, think and talk only about 20'' rims or talking about the girls they had sex with. I have no idea who to blame, however, it isn't the parents full fault. I've met parents that talk like a linguistics master of some sort yet their kids love the glitz and glamor of the "thug" life and they fall into that trend, and it ends up ruining their lives.

    When a person is around this type of life for ALL of their lives they practically can't help but to talk like that. I don't even blame jesse jackson that's just another excuse. It is the people personally and the people that speak like this has been around it and their parents have been around it. I mean it litterally gets me teary eyed sometimes looking at all the lost souls that fall under this temptation, even worse than the org in MANY ways. One kid inspired me at school though, he was a senior and he was a very smart black kid. He went to a very established school for a while and SOME reason he came to this ghetto school I go to now. He's pretty popular but I still see kids ending up talking like idiots on a road to suffering. I asked him what he thinks about all this and he said that there is no hope for the people that is in the high school at the moment. No outside hope, it's only the people's decisions, and the people that are in those situations ONLY live with other people that think their lives are crap. People think they are just animals most of the time but they can reason, but they just can't do it it's their surroundings. I have no idea how they can stop it because human's naturally help out the people that they will get some kind of gain out of, so they leave the little people that live crap lives behind.

    I don't see it ending any time soon at all. Only individuals can get out of it, doubt seeing a whole any time soon.

  • Perry
    Perry
    Standard English

    Appalachian English

    Nobody could see anything.

    He hasn't done any chores.

    Nobody couldn?t see nothing.

    He ain't done no chores.


    Many of these Appalachian English features are socially stigmatized, but none are reflective of a deficient language variety.

    My father spoke perfect 19th century Appalacian English. I grew up in the big city of Houston so at least had exposure to more socailly acceptable speaking characteristics. I was never corrected at home for my speech paterns which had a definite element of this.

    However, within 24 hours of being around my realtives in Mississsippi, Appalacian English would rear its head it full form, usually while we were laughing so hard we were choking. Slang is so easy on the soul for some reason.

    Business and career communication is a totally different story and can literally end any chance of a decent life if you do not get it right.

  • nilfun
    nilfun

    Leolaia and Amac, excellent comments.

  • Perry
    Perry

    Been thinkin' 'bout this some more. Proper english is very cerebral. Slang or cultural speech is almost more about communicating identity and emotion than it is facts.

    Just a thought.

  • Mac
    Mac

    Hell, neither can I! It's a damn hard language to learn.... that is why I prefer low gutural sounds and pointing!

    mac

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Obviously Secret.....Wow, what a post. I think you hit on all the problems. (1) The schools suck. Because of underfunding they try to cram as many students as possible into a class. And lazy teaching wouldn't surprise me because better teachers go for better-paying jobs and less qualified teachers settle for what they can get. Wasn't Bush supposed to be the Education President? Wasn't he going to make reading a top priority? For all the money that's been poured into Iraq (whether you agree with the war or not), it just takes a relatively tiny amount of the Defense budget to take schools out of the poverty-Special Ed trap. But our priority is better bombs over better schools. (2) The stigma against Standard English, that you sound "white" if you speak it and they taunt you over it. What a trap. It's completely understandable because of the language subordination process and how language is used continually by whites to discriminate against blacks. It's a proven fact. A colleague of mine got a segment on Dateline NBC where he demonstrated what happens daily in the US. He can speak both perfect Standard English and perfect Black Vernacular. He did a study where he called up ppl who placed real estate ads in the newspaper to come see the lot being offerred. If he spoke Standard English, usually there was no problem. When he spoke Black Vernacular, in his usual natural way, most of the time an excuse was made -- obvious discrimination. So a rejection of Standard English by certain black teens is understandable because they recognize that white society rejects them even on account of their English, and they are carving out a social space (i.e. adopting "thug life") that expresses their black identity in a way that rejects white culture and its institutions. It is a reaction to racism that unfortunately perpetuates racism by reinforcing white prejudices and preserving the inequalities of wealth and prestige that still constitute a legacy from the past. There are two kinds of power. There is local power, the power that in a positive sense can be realized in activism, resistence, etc. at the local level, the kind of empowerment that Malcom X advocated, and then there is institutional power, the kind of power one gains through the socioeconomic structure, through established political and economic institutions, through money, etc., which is another kind of advancement through less radical social change (e.g. MLK). The latter is often devalued as "buying into the system", while the "thug life" is an easy way for powerless people to feel powerful, though it does nothing to garner institutional power and in fact is ultimately disempowering and effects no positive activism for social change.


    I don't know how change can come. Schools need to be better funded, focus on more individual education, give a far higher standard of education, and stop teaching Standard English in a way that reinforces beliefs of the Standard as only a white language and devalues your own speech, and that of mom and dad, as ignorant and bad habits to be unlearned. Rather than pouring tons of energy to unlearn completely what you've spoken all your life, why not use that as a bridge, as a foundation to learn a whole new way of speaking English. One does not unlearn English in order to learn Spanish. And one does not have to unlearn all their habits of doing arithmetic in order to learn Algebra. Standard English should be imho taught like Algebra as a skill that adds to what you already do well, and something that can be skillfully employed when you need it. And all schools should push hard for college and not have lazy guidence counselling. The social stigma thing and the attitudes against institutions like school and white-collar employment are a much trickier problem. I don't think there's much schools at the secondary level can do, because of the anti-authority current in adolesence and institutions have low credibility in the eyes of those who feel the deck is already stacked against them so why bother. I guess the best way such attitudes could change is strong parenting at a very young age. Strong parenting that instills the message that one must use every opportunity one has to get ahead, that it is foolish to reject the means to real economic power, and that one does not fight racism by rejecting the "racist" institutions since rejecting them just perpetuates the same old inequalities as before.


    Anyway, my 5 cents.

  • simplesally
    simplesally

    I don't think that only black people are the ones that speak a slang form of english, nor do I think they are the only ones on welfare! However, Bill Cosby was only talking about them............ we should not have a problem with that!

    If I want to talk about Irish Catholics who drink too much, I should not be chastised and told that there are other cultures or ethnic groups that drink a lot!

    We are allowed to single out a group and talk about a group problem that does exist in that one group..........even tho many groups may be afllicted/influenced by that one issue.

  • myauntfanny
    myauntfanny

    Bill Cosby is old, and rich, and probably has very little clue about either the politics or social history of languages. He just remembers that when he was young it was possible for him to succeed by sounding white, and that's probably still true. But it doesn't mean that a language that has evolved away from the mainstream is "bad" or "improper". White American is pretty far from the King's English, and white Americans wouldn't be too happy if they heard English people going around saying those Yanks talk like a bunch of barbarians, why can't they speak properly (which they do sometimes, by the way). American language is a melting pot of different influences because it has had input from so many different nationalities. I don't think anyone has a high horse to ride here. I think it is also important to remember that black people came here as slaves with languages of their own, and if they want to keep some identity with that, more power to them. It's not like they've had any compensation otherwise.

  • avishai
    avishai
    Where are we, 1935? I didn't realise people still spoke like this. Doubtfully Yours, whether you're a minority yourself or not, you're undoubtedly racist

    Undoubtedly, my ass. Do you live in the US?

    Great posts, Leolea and obviously secret. HUGE problems with kids avoiding education because it would make them sound too "white".

    But it doesn't mean that a language that has evolved away from the mainstream is "bad" or "improper"

    Yes, it does. If that is the only way you know how to speak, you can't get a proper job and feed your family well, or live anywhere above minimum wage. Things like allowing black kids ebonics in school and not teaching them "standard" english is the most evil, racist thing you could do, worse than bringing crack into their community. You might as well cut their arms off as give them the excuse that "It's OK, it's your dialect. Bullshit. Not OK.

    Worse than standing there and having the teacher call them racist names all day.

    The best way too keep inner city blacks down is tooo poorly educate them and give them the idea that they have their own "dialect and culture" and don't have too learn proper english. Speak it all you want, fine, just learn proper english too.

    Henry Higgins, sadly, was right.

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