Amen Crazydrinker,
You said it better than I could!
Blacks can't speak English - Bill Cosby
by closer2fine 129 Replies latest jw friends
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Stefanie
Flower you are very wise and I respect you greatly!
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amac
Sorry Flower, I was referring to black accents as opposed to slang, but that's only because I was going off on a tangent about racism. I agree that there are times where slang is inappropriate and that may often be crossed. But to insinuate that it is the lack of ability to speak properly that is keeping African Americans in the lower economic ranks is ridiculously simplifying a complex problem, and I don't approve of Cosby making that insinuation.
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Larry
Interest thread - Thanks for posting that Closer :)
I echo the points already said, such as:
"I like Bill Cosby and he has a good point..Such is not the case however and what I dont like is that people take the actions of these few uneducated, ignorant people and lump ALL minorities in together as belonging to that class of people..Because there is no such thing as 'black accents'...Ebonics is slang..period." ~ Flower
"Just imagine if a Rush Limbaugh or a white republican said these things?" ~ 40
"People like to think that we live in a country where ANYONE can succeed if they try hard enough. That is simply not true...And this is still only a small portion of the vicious cycle of American racism." ~ Amac
"American language is a melting pot of different influences because it has had input from so many different nationalities." ~ myauntfanny
"but all races and cultures should take to heart what he said." ~ Corvin
"So when we think of the "culture" associated with Black Vernacular, no one thinks anymore of Langston Hughes, Alice Walker, stylin' at the pulpit, signifyin', and blues music?" ~ Leolaia
"It's called 'capitalism'. The people who are in control do not care about the poor, they just want to keep them in the inner cities, and then go on and on about how 'anybody can make it' if they really want to!..It is the nature of the powerful who have become successful, and remain so, on the backs of the poor..." ~ talesin
" Like it or not, fairly or otherwise, we're judged by how we speak." ~ Room 215
My thoughts: Bill Cosby, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, MLK, Mal. X, etc. does not speak for the entire Afro-American race. They are people great in their own right, they have many fine points to make, I respect them and their accomplishments, but they don't represent me.
No race has a monopoly on proper speech.
Before the King James version of the bible was produced, English was the bastard 'ghetto' language of the day.
Education is the key to getting a better job, making more money, etc., but it's not the key for being a better human being.
Peace - LL :)
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Leolaia
No its bad grammer and full of slang. "Iz tolds her dat I donts needs no school!" [Something I heard in the reception area at work yesterday] is NOT a dialect of English. Its UNEDUCATED DRIVEL.
Ebonics is slang..period.
If you want to say you don't want to recognize it as a dialect because you disapprove of it and feel that it doesn't deserve to be recognized, that's one thing. That is an opinion one is definitely entitled to. But I am speaking purely in scientific terms that Black Vernacular definitely is linguistically and structurally a dialect, with grammatical and phonologial rules and distinctive non-slang lexicon (e.g. "ashy" is certainly not a slang word, it goes back generations). Everyone in the field of English dialect studies recognizes it as a dialect and treats it as linguistically no less a dialect than Scottish English, Hiberno-English, Nova Scotia English, Norwich English, Cockney English, etc. Some speakers of Black Vernacular, particularly in youth culture, definitely use a lot of slang. So do white California teens. But many don't try to slangify everything. Go listen to people testifyin' at church and the preacher giving his sermon and I would almost guarantee you won't hear -izzle and whatever else slang all over the place. It is not accurate to reduce the entirety of Black Vernacular to just slang and ignore everything else. And I am very suspicious of your sample sentence. You've added third person present tense -s to past tense verbs (when the tendency in Black Vernacular instead is to drop third person -s, e.g. He say he not ready to get married for He says he's not ready to get married), and same thing with the copula cliticizing to the pronoun (dropping the copula, He say I not ready to get married, not He say Iz not ready to get married), and you even extended the -s to negator don't! It reminds me of the kind of "fake" Ebonics that was satired in Bamboozled, or how whites when they try to imitate Black Vernacular always misuse "be" in ways that no black speaker would (in reality, be occurs before imperfect verbs to indicate habitual aspect -- a grammatical distinction that does not exist in Standard English but can be found in certain English dialects that use be the same way). Maybe it's some new slang thing to add -s on every other word for the heck of it (without meaning anything), but it certainly isn't a grammatical rule of Black Vernacular.
Because there is no such thing as 'black accents'. Europeans speak like people from Europe, that is an accent. Blacks who were raised in Europe also have a EUROPEAN accent. Not an ebonics accent. Blacks who were born and raised in Africa have an African accent not an ebonics accent. Blacks in France speak with a French accent.
Accent is a loaded word, because we normally use it to refer to foreigners speaking English like Europeans, Africans in Africa, etc. A more accurate and neutral word would be "phonological pattern". Every dialect shares its own phonological pattern, especially regional dialects. Black Vernacular has a well-known phonology, described for instance at this website: http://www.rehabmed.ualberta.ca/spa/phonology/features.htm
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talesin
Leolaia
Your comment here really pointed out something to me. I've been just reading, not commenting. Interesting debate.
Some speakers of Black Vernacular, particularly in youth culture, definitely use a lot of slang. So do white California teens. But many don't try to slangify everything. Go listen to people testifyin' at church and the preacher giving his sermon and I would almost guarantee you won't hear -izzle and whatever else slang all over the place. It is not accurate to reduce the entirety of Black Vernacular to just slang and ignore everything else.
When I heard about Cosby's comments, I took him to mean the kind of slang street talk that teenagers in general are using, not to be confused with dialect. There is a difference, as you have pointed out. A big difference, imho. It's prevalent here as well, in the 'white' or as I like to say Euro community and not just California. The kids think it's cool to use 'ghetto slang', which is not what I think of as the testifyin' and language that Alice Walker uses in her books. A few expressions, like 'sup?' are true to the culture, but most of it is pretty recent, and more related to gang-banging, as far as I know.
So perhaps this debate is based somewhat, on a misunderstanding in the definition of terms?
Curious as to what you, and others involved in this discussion, think of this point. I don't know much about this from a scholarly view, but that kind of stuck out in my mind, after reading the whole debate.
tal
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Crazy151drinker
But I am speaking purely in scientific terms that Black Vernacular definitely is linguistically and structurally a dialect
Then it would be the same everywhere and its not.
"Iz tolds her dat I donts needs no school!" Thats a dialect?
Basicly, a certain uneducated people have HORRIBLE language skills and you are trying to legitimise it by saying its "a dialect"
Maybe I should just carry around a translator
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Crazy151drinker
Using my translator:
How are you doing? = How iz ya doin'? what 'chew trippin foo'
she is really pretty = she iz really fine ass
I want to go to college= ah wants ta jet ta college
Dialect my ass
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nilfun
I can't even talk the way these people talk
Well, he did a parody character (Mushmouth) before. Does that count?
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Obviously Secret
I am about to go to school. - Imz fintnaz go ta da school houz.
Do you like that young lady? - Dam dat girl got ASS you wanna hit dat right thur?
I'm having problems with the judicial system and my probation officer. - Man my PO is strate trippin yo.
I like this song. - This thang got da boom that i like ya herd what im sayin? Strate cold shit right thur. You herd what im sayin?
Just a few more examples. Gotta love it.
Anyways it's all about the person. The only people that I have seen that actually try and make something of themselves have been around white kids for a good portion of time. Sad really... Lol it's already 10 times harder for a black kid to get to college and most of them act lazier than white stoner kids.