Is it possible for a sociopath to change? It is with Jehovah's spirit. Or?

by avengers 47 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

• 

  blondie

  I am not a psychiatrist but I have been around sociopaths at home (my father) and at work when I was in law enforcement. Many sociopaths are charming, well-read, have good jobs, nothing to indicate the danger they pose to people around them. Things go great as long as you don't get in the way of something/someone they want.

  I don't think there is a cure, because they will never see they are wrong and need to change.

  http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/parade_071402.html

  http://psychological.com/april_01_newsletter.htm

  Management rather than treatment is likely the most appropriate term. Since these individuals will inflict rather than experience suffering, it is exceedingly rare that they seek treatment except to access prescription drugs. Clearly, early identification and attempts to contain their victimization of others and misuse of resources becomes the primary goal. Since true remorse does not occur, motivation for change is absent.

  http://www.fineliterature.com/page49.html
• 

  talesin

  Robert D. Hare, Ph.D., is considered one of the world's foremost experts in the area of psychopathy and he is the author of the popular book Without Conscience .
  
  Dr. Hare is a professor of psychology at the University of British Columbia, and has researched psychopathy for more than twenty years. The following is his well-known and implemented psychopathy checklist.
  
  For each characteristic that is listed, the subject is given a score: 0 for "no," 1 for "somewhat," and 2 for "definitely does apply." (Please note that Dr. Hare does not advise that the layman use this checklist for "diagnosing" friends and family; this checklist, however, does give you a good idea how it is used).
  
  1. Glibness/superficial charm
  2. Grandiose sense of self-worth
  3. Need for stimulation/proneness to boredom
  4. Pathological lying
  5. Conning/manipulative
  6. Lack of remorse or guilt
  7. Shallow affect
  8. Callous/lack of empathy
  9. Parasitic lifestyle
  10. Poor behavioural controls
  11. Promiscuous sexual behaviour
  12. Early behaviour problems
  13. Lack of realistic, long-term plans
  14. Impulsivity
  15. Irresponsibility
  16. Failure to accept responsibility for own actions
  17. Many short-term relationships
  18. Juvenile delinquency
  19. Revocation of conditional release
  20. Criminal versatility
  Narcissism is also a characteristic

  Hare had continued his work with the assessment scale, eventually called the Psychopathy Checklist, and in 1985, he revised it to include only twenty items. It was now known as the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R), and was completed on the basis of a semi-structured interview with the people being assessed, along with information from files. Person by person, each trait on the scale was rated on a scale from 0, meaning the person did not manifest it, to 2, meaning he or she definitely did. The total score was 40, and a person was diagnosed as a psychopath if his or her score fell between 30 and 40. (In some places, a cut-off score of 25 is useful.)

  I hope that's helpful

  talesin
• 

  A Paduan

  Sociopaths? I'm asuming you mean paedophiles?

  In the wts, best result will be if they stop abusing sexually - but as for sociopaths, a bulk of jws are sociopaths - it's an integral part of being a "good" jw.

  Can they change - not sure - I tend to think most people here never fitted into the org in the first place - but then again, maybe they did - then changed.
• 

  blondie

  a Paduan

  I would go out on a limb and say that most if not all pedophiles are sociopaths (a behanovir) but not all sociopaths are pedophles.

  Blondie
• 

  outoftheorg

  THERE ARE SOCIOPATHS AND THERE ARE FUNCTIONING SOCIOPATHS.

  THE FUNCTIONING ONES CAN GET ALONG IN SOCIETY AT LEAST TO A DEGREE. AS LONG AS THEY ARE NOT CHALLENGED. OR HAVE TO FACE A PROBLEM.

  IN BOTH CASES THEY WILL NOT CHANGE, AS THEY BELIEVE THEY ARE SUPERIOR TO OTHERS, MORE DESERVING OF RESPECT, AND HAVE NO CONSCIENCE WHAT EVER.

  SERVING THEIR NEEDS, AND THESE NEEDS CAN BE ANYTHING DESIRED, IS THEIR PRIMARY MOTIVATION, IF NOT THE ONLY ONE.

  THEY MAKE WONDERFUL WBTS DO'S AND CO'S. HOPEFULLY THEY ARE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN.

  Outoftheorg
• 

  mustang

  As with Blondie, I will go out on the limb; practically the same limb, in fact. We might break it

  I will put the pedophiles and sociopaths as very separate. Reasons for the distinction include:

  If a pedophile is a sociopath, the sociopath manifestation is likely contributory but pales in significance to the absorption they will have with children.

  OTOH, the sociopath(s) that I encountered had nothing to do with children. It was as if children did not exist for them, even though they may have had children.

  I have that vague feeling about my father's raising me; he left most of it to my mother. And based on experience with him, I gave him a zero on the sexual behavior score line of the checklist.

  I would say that his possibilities for sexual issues were absorbed or sublimated by his obsession with power. This is evidenced by his manipulation and a few other items on the checklist. If you are seeking to rule over or "lord over" a group, the children have no vote or influence; nor are they a rival to be removed. They simply don't exist!!!

  And contrary to what Freudians and JW's might tell you, there are other things in the world than sex. It is noteworthy that the sociopath checklist has sex as a one-liner against 21 items.

  I may have encountered other sociopaths, but I haven't sorted that out; I could simply get out of the way of those, so they really didn't register. Maybe a CO or two...

  From what I can see, being an adult sociopath is a fixation with purely adult issues. They could quite likely be a candidate for abandoning children.

  Now, in adolescence, I would think they could be an excellent candidate for being bullies. If they are physically large children and have already "learned their trade", I would guarantee it!!!

  Mustang
• 

  xenawarrior

  Great reference Tale !! I have that book and it's a good one regarding psychopaths and sociopaths. The terms are being used nowadays pretty much the same.

  Dr. Hare had to go into the prison system to do his research because that is where he could actually find some of these folks. Thing is, the sociopath won't ever admit that he/she has a problem so you don't find them in the mainstream psychiatric community.

  A sociopath is very difficult to treat psychologically. Again, you aren't going to find them sitting on the couches looking for help because they won't admit they have a problem. Their whole defense system is set up to blame everyone around them for all that ails them and all the problems they may create. They have denial down to an art and the worst part is that they really believe that you are to blame for it all. They tell so many stories that they begin to believe it all themselves. So they go through life wreaking havoc on those around them and manipulating their way through life. They are users and abusers and in the end they'll even have you believing it's all YOUR fault.

  And yes, they feel no remorse. What's to be remorseful for when it's not their fault? They'll lie and when caught in a lie, even if they know they are caught- they'll simply make up another lie or story to try to cover that one up. Or they'll just say "so what?" To them, social rules and even laws do not apply to them. And they'll smatter just enough "truth" in what they put out there that is verifiable to make other things they say seem credible.

  They also seem to have a radar for those folks out there who care about others and are the "helpers" of the world. If you get involved with one- RUN in the other direction because I can guarantee that you will get hurt if you invest any of yourself.

  XW of the "seen too much of it" class
• 

  talesin

  It was as if children did not exist for them,

  Okay, I'm on the same limb.

  If you do not 'fit into' their plan, or get in their way, you simply do not exist for the sociopath.

  IMO, some sociopaths are pedophiles, eg. some run child porn rings and the like.

  But they are two separate and different pathologies, athough both are considered incurable and unchangeable by many psychiatric professionals.

  XW

  Good info and so true,,, RUN RUN RUN! (had to edit, cross-post *bump* :D )

  tal
• 

  avengers

  You know, you people are marvelous. I see posters here ask for something and boom there it is.
  So again. Thanks Talesin,
  but when I looked at the chart the hair that I still have left suddenly got greyer. .

  Clearly, early identification and attempts to contain their victimization of others and misuse of resources becomes the primary goal.

  Good point!
  (Please note that Dr. Hare does not advise that the layman use this checklist for "diagnosing" friends and family; this checklist, however, does give you a good idea how it is used).

  When I look at the chart and I look at the person who is staying at my house my hair stands up straight. Mind you, I have known this person for 29 years. In the seventies I was assigned to his mother and father and him and his little sister to assist them "spiritually".
  read encourage them to do field-service do bible-study etc. (you know the drill) esp. you ex elders and ms's. I was still thinking about eldership in those days, which they offered. (yes I know they don't usually do that, but they did!)

  One day (1973) I was making a shepherdly call to this family. I was one of the few who owned a car, so I drove to their apartment.
  When I got there I heard a lot of screaming, people throwing things and lots of banging. I rang the bell as loud as I could so I would be sure they would hear it. They looked and saw it was me and everything quieted down immediately. When they let me in I saw this little boy of six who was injured; he had a gash on his forehead. His stepdad hit him with an object.
  I took him to the hospital right away. His stepdad went with me to the hospital. I did not speak with the doctor. His stepdad did. I didn't pay attention to it further only encouraged this family to do more for Jehovah. So the matter was buried.

  I saw this child grow up. In and out of foster homes, a criminal record that doesn't end, his stepdad turned out to be a pedophile, (who did his time ). One thing that gets me though. He'll never forget that time when I stepped in to help him. He always says to me: "I'll never forget that". He says he is thankful to me for that.

  At the end of the of the nineties the girlfriend whom he had a relation with told me he had messed with her daughter in the beginning of the nineties. I asked him and he denied it. I believed him and gave him the benefit of the doubt, because he convinced me with a passion I could not deny. See point nr. 1
  
  I did not pay any attention to it further until he visited me several months ago and confided in me about his sexual adventure with this little girl. (I posted about this) I really got sick. I did not say anything though and I gave him a lot of "rope".

  One night he called me and said there were about thirty people trying to kill him, which is indeed true. There was nobody left over to help him. His stepfather kicked him out, his mother he has no contact with. Just me.
  So I took him in. (I'd rather have him walk in front of me than behind me. call me nuts, which I am)

  In the time he has been here I observed. This guy fits the chart. I have to be honest. He scores a perfect forty. Very very scary.
  
  He has destroyed several lives of people in the past, mainly women whom he uses. He leaves when their lives are in shambles. But it's never his fault and he will convince you of this.

  and now Blondie.

  Clearly, early identification and attempts to contain their victimization of others and misuse of resources becomes the primary goal

  Early id. How? Can this be done by children? That would have the most effect.
  contain their victimization of others and misuse of resources. again how? I think education is the key. How can we identify these individuals?

  Oh yes I almost forgot. Sociopaths are also often pedophiles, but don't have to be. (point 11) Pedophiles are not always sociopaths.
  Confused? Just hang in there.

  Andy.

  
  
  
• 

  mustang

  I used the chart on my Dad's characteristics; he gets about a 30. Then I found another reference to this and NOTE:

  Dr. Hare had to go into the prison populations to get his subjects. That is because the Sociopaths hide so well; that is the FUNCTIONAL format. I noticed that Hare's real definition to at least one of the line items is keyed to hard & fast criminals: who else would skip out on Probation Officer's appointments.

  DR. Hare has lacked "real world" subjects; that is minus the "graybar motel" scenario. We should send him to the neatest KH!!!

  Also, I have looked into PDDNOS. This Developmental Disorder has the same "early diagnosis" paradigm: if the diagnosis is not early, the subject "learns" enough functionality to beat the system/test!!!

  And, yes, Avenger, growing up under one of these was HELL!!! And it is the only reason I did an immense amount of JW'ism. Once out of his direct influence, I made that history in a graceful 6 months "slow fade".

  ("You may be paranoid, but that doesn't meant they aren't following you" - Maxwell Smart. He sent people after me for about 30 years!!!)

  BTW, having left before 1975, my Baptism was never Ratified into the Org/Borg Baptism. I still have a "Christian Baptism", good at many a Church worldwide.

  Mustang