BIBLICAL PROOF OF THE TRINITY?

by what_is_truth_7 29 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Snapdragon

Crazy, I saw the thread on the omnipotence of God, and whether or not he allowed the suffering of mankind. I read some into it, but didn't go too far. Once Farkel started talking philosphy I realized I'd better be able to spend more than a few minutes skimming the posts.
Good point, no one knows for sure what Jesus' life was like before the recordings of his ministry. That is why, since he was raised in a jewish household and was describes as a good man, I believe he must have followed the Law. He would have been shunned, otherwise. No one would have listened to him or followed his teachings, from the jewish community. While he did preach to gentiles, his main area was with the jewish population.
I really wouldn't know where to start, to comment on God's omniscience. I would venture to say that since he's the big dog, he's going to win the war. But whether or not he should have prevented all our suffering by stopping Adam from munching the apple? Well, it doesn't really matter, does it?
You're correct, it is unsettlig to think we may not have free will. But clearly we do. The only thing I wonder about not having free will over is snicker bars. I can't seem to stop eating them. The overall events of the history/future of humankind may be directed, but I don't feel they're dictated. Know what I mean? So there's my randomly mad answer, to your randomly mad thoughts.
What are your thoughts on the trinity, or are you telling me you're an atheist?
~A
gold_morning

God is Alpha and Omega Rev. 1:8
Jesus is Alpha and Omega Rev. 22:12-16

God returns to Mt. of Olives Zech 14:4-5
Jesus returns to Mt. of Olives Acts 1:9-12

The gospel of God 2 Cor. 11:7
The gospel of Christ 2 Cor. 10:14

Jehovah is Lord Dt. 6:4, 2 Sam. 7:28, Ps.
18:31, Ps. 118:27, 1 Kings 18:39
Jesus is Lord Phil. 2:11, 1 Cor. 12:3, John 13:13, Jude 4, 1 Cor.
16:23

****God is Savior Isa. 43:3, 10-11, Hos. 13:4****
****Jesus is Savior Luke 2:11, Acts 4:10-12, Titus 1:3-4, 2:13***

God is Creator Gen. 1:1, Ps. 102:25
Jesus is Creator Col. 1:16, Heb. 1:2,10, John 1:3,10

God is worshipped Ex. 20:3-5, Rev. 22:9
Jesus is worshipped Heb. 1:6, John 20:28, Matt. 28:9

God pours out Spirit Joel 2:27-28
Jesus pours out Spirit Acts 2:33

God is Judge Ps. 50:5-6, Rom. 2:5
Jesus is Judge John 5:22, Rev. 2:23, 22:12

What_is_truth and snapdragon,
I hope this scriptures below help you. They were eye opening for me. Trinity is difficult to understand on our terms to say the least, but often we never give it any thought that we cannot understand it because we are not in the spirit realm. Though scientist and doctors don't understand exactly what life is or what makes something living does not mean there is no such thing as life. To read so many scriptures that show the divinity of Christ does not mean we have to understand it.
I look at it this way. Think of a pitcher filled with water. The water being God. Then take a glass and pour water in it. They are two seperate containers... but it is the same water. That analogy was helpful for me. the scriptures are below. agape love, Gold
God is Shepherd Psalm 23:1
Jesus is Shepherd John 10:14

God knows all Ps. 139:1-4
Jesus knows all John 21:17

God forgives sins Jer. 31:34, Luke 5:21
Jesus forgives sins Matt. 9:2, Mark 2:5-10

God sanctifies us 1 Thess. 5:22
Jesus sanctifies us Eph. 5:25-26

Every knee bows to God Isa. 45:21-23
Every knee bows to Jesus Phil. 2:10-11
stillajwexelder

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all [2] the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
This shows more than one person was involved from the beginning in the creation as God said ?us make?.
PRECISELY not three in one -ARIAN HERSEY ALL OVER AGAIN - HEAR O Israel the lord our God is not actually one God but Three in One
what_is_truth_7

I know I will never fully understand or be able to explain God. However, I need to clarify this point specifically, because I need to know who to pray to. As it goes now, I only pray to God; approaching him in the name of his son. Anyway, here goes more:

Also if it is true only then could Jesus have the power to save us completely from our sins. And it puts him in a whole new position...God! whoosh!
Jesus was a fully practicing jew.
I'm sorry about my last reply. Frankly I looked at it wrong and didn't research or think enough. Yes he was a practicing Jew. And was a perfect one at that.
I can't give the scripture that Witnesses use to claim Jesus was the very first creation.... I've been out too long. Perhaps this is where someone else could step in and answer this one.
I'm going to ask a friend tonight!
Isaiah 48:13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My ri ght hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
Again it is contraversal for Jesus to be part of creation if he is not God (as part of the Trinity) as scripture reveals, for example shown in Isaiah above, that Gods hand created.
Good question. This is something that was never satisfactorily answered to me by my study guides in the Witness faith. My only response to this is that I have only read this verse in english. I need to do further studying into hebrew and read the translation myself. There are many ways of understanding a word, and the ways it may be used in a sentence. I am not refuting this argument of yours, only stating my opinion. But this verse alone does not convince me that God=Jesus.
Yes that would help. Until we get further help we should maybe focus on other scriptures then. Theres plenty. Look at gold_mornings post. BTW thanks very much for this gold_morning

Please elaborate on the body, spirit, soul comment
Umm my understanding has been body-physical, soul-personnality, spirit-link with God
Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword,piercing even to the division of soul and spirit.............
Speaks for itself. Can't find anymore at the minute
And are you using this to show trinity in humans?
I believe God evidences the trinity in alot of things. 3 dimensional world ? - family..mum, dad and children? And yes has been my way of looking at things that we consist of a trinity.
How is the spirit different from the soul? Aren't they the same thing?
I think to be without a relationship with God (not having Jesus as Saviour and Lord to fix relationship) means your spirit is dead (Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 shows Spirit returns to God). Thats what it means in scriptures when it takes about death..as well as physical it can be spiritual..and that is of which Jesus came to fix.
Where as the soul lives forever (irrelivant of where it may dwell!) and is your personality I guess. Matthew 10:28 -
im confused on this issue but and need to look into it more. Might be wrong. :S But I believe they are separte just not sure on the purpose.
I guess I was trying to point out that many themes throughout the bible repeat themselves. The trinity issue would be unique, as its theme is not repeated in the bible. Indeed, the question of the trinity isn't raised until the new testament.
Guess thats maybe because Jesus came as God only then and was reveal mostly then. I know wee clearly the Trinity theme in the bible irrespective of old beliefs and so I will base my believe on Gods complete revealation not man.
If God is three, why did he only become three later in the history of the world.
He didn't. He always was 3. God in Genesis 1:1 is a plural word. It has been since the beginning. It has always been. We all just bit thick! lol
The Jews would have worshipped a biune God if this were the case; God and the Holy Spirit.
Is it not possible they got it wrong..again..based on this new revealation!?..or maybe God was happy to be worshipped as God as he is that aswell as the trinity..Maybe it was not his time to reveal...more likely we messed up.
To understand this point better, it is important to understand shekinah, the word for holy spirit in. It is refered to in a feminine term, and understood by Jews to be God's active power. They never worshipped it, though. No more than a man's hand is given credit for what he creates.
My initial post covers how the Holy Spirit (he) is definetly a separate entity/person yet still in trinity. Cant refer to anything else as he correctly.
And if Jesus was God, coming to earth, what would that have proved? The question raised by Satan was God's headship, and his right to rule over his own creation. Why would he have come to earth to die for us? We already know his perfection. A perfect human dying in place of our sins is a true equivalent. Not God dying for puny humans. What would that spectacle have been about? He doesn't need to prove anything to us. Why did Jesus call out to his father and beg his father to relieve his suffering if possible? God would have been talking to himself.
I do not know what your understanding is here. But I believe Jesus came and was God and the reason being is he was the only one able to conquer death. He was what the sacrafices of lambs pointed to. He was the one who was going to do the real Jod. It pleased God to sacrafice Jesus bible says, yet it says he has no joy in the burnt offereings. They were pointers to Jesus. If you wish ask me for verse references. Jesus made solution to our problem of spiritual death and brocken relationships with God for good. We just have to accept it.
You may have noticed I place a lot of weight with the beliefs of the Jews. It is the one religion I believe God gave to humankind. Unfortunately they failed to recognize the messiah when he came. (As was foretold.) Therefore, what they believe about God and his word, is what I believe. Jesus was a Jew. However I believe Jesus was the savior promised to his people. This is why I am a christian, not a jew. I respect the first covenent for what is was, but I place my faith in the promise brought about by Jesus.
This is good. But base on Gods word. The bible shows how people have been failing him and messing up the whole way through. It is only thing we can trust.
Your turn
hard work ! hehe :p..fun! I really hope and pray you find the truth. Thanks for making me think its good for me
what_is_truth_7

About this God all powerful and all loving theory : I've done this in school. Most stupid thought process ever. You can't characterise God with 3 qualities (loving,powerful,knowing) and try work him out. He is so much bigger.
He is also Just..we can basically sum it up with this. He must punish sin.
Why did he just not make us. This would imediately take away the free will he choose to give us. He is just and won't break his own boundaries he sets.
We can not pass the blame...we all screw up..but he provides a solution of grace we dont deserve and we complain! Enjoy life and get right with God through Jesus's sacrafice for you and you will understand how wonderful his love and grace is now and one day in eternity u will fall at his feet in wonder.
We are the screw ups not God..stop passing the blame.
Btw...knowing something before it happens does not take away free will. Just means you can see persons choice
On another note. I read about that pagan origin of Trinity and because of location or knowledge or something (can't remember) the early christians would not have known about it according to some encyclopedia...just a thought.
what_is_truth_7

hey guys..here is something a mate who bible studies with me gave me on this:
Thank you for taking time to reply to our post. Let me clear some things up. Let me assume for now that the Jews do indeed take God to be one entity (I?m trusting you on this one). I hate to come back to the old clichéd shamrock argument used by St. Patrick, but it makes the point well. Look at the leaf of a shamrock. It may be one leaf, but it has 3 separate parts that make up that one leaf. In the same way a tree has different branches, and yet still is one tree, God has 3 parts, yet he is still one God. This would at least partly answer you thoughts about the Jews believing in a "one being God". I do as well.
Secondly, you mentioned the face that Jesus was a practising Jew, and he knew the Jewish beliefs, so why did he not make clear to them that he was God.
John 10:38
But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, you should at least believe my deeds, in order that you may know once and for all that the Father is in me and that I am in the Father."
This story may help a bit:

A professor of theology once asked his students to get a sheet of paper and divide it into three columns. In the first column they were to write every passage where Christ is spoken of as God-Man; in the second column all the passages where Christ is spoken of as God alone; and in the third, all the passages where Christ is spoken of as man alone. The papers were badly balanced. The first and second columns filled right up, but as to the third column, no one found a passage speaking of Christ as man alone. There just is no such passage.
Mat 16:15-17
"What about you?" he asked them. "Who do you say I am?"
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."
"Good for you, Simon son of John!" answered Jesus. "For this truth did not come to you from any human being, but it was given to you directly by my Father in heaven.
Jesus confirms to Peter (and those disciples who were present) that he is correct in saying that he is the Son of God. Jesus also said (John 14:9) Jesus answered, "For a long time I have been with you all; yet you do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father(God). He is again making it clear that not only is he the son of the Father, but he IS the father embodied.
If Jesus IS the father then he has been "around" since before the creation (we know this because the Father has always existed. I do not believe that Jesus was created. I believe is has always "been" and always will be.
Finally this brings me to the second post, and hopefully to some issues surrounding the Trinity. We are dealing here with the very nature of God himself, something that I do not believe that we can ever comprehend totally outside of eternity.
It was mentioned that God could exist in any number of dimensions. I must confess I am not a quantum physicist so I cannot speak about the theory, only tell you what I believe and why. I think that God exists in no dimensions, in that he is beyond everything that "is". We are told that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. I don?t believe that he could have created it if he was in any way bound by its rules.
There is no doubt that we live in a wonderful and beautiful universe, and I believe that God is outside of it all. He created Time, Space, and Matter. We cannot comprehend anything without time, though if God created it, he must be outside of it. This leads naturally to the conclusion that we will never be able to comprehend God while we are limited by the constraints of time.
I hope this goes some of the way to explaining why you say "there is no basis for the trinity in the natural world." When I think about things like this I realize how awesome God really is, and it makes me realize just how awesome it is that he loves me and wants me to be with him.
Carmel

It is said that once John of Chrysostom was walking along the seashore thinking over the question of the trinity and trying to reconcile it with finite reason; his attention was attracted to a boy sitting on the shore putting water into a cup. Approaching him, he said, "My child, what art thou doing?" "I am trying to put the sea into this cup," was the answer. "How foolish art thou," said John, "in trying to do the impossible." The child replied, "Thy work is stranger than mine, for thou art laboring to bring within the grasp of human intellect the conception of the trinity."
Let us, free from past tradition, investigate the reality of this matter. What is the meaning of the father and the son?
This fatherhood and sonship are allegorical and symbolical. The Messianic reality is like unto a mirror through which the sun of divinity has become resplendent. If this mirror expresses "The light is in me" - it is sincere in its claim; therefore Jesus was truthful when he said, "The Father is in me."
The sun in the sky and the sun in the mirror are one, are they not? - and yet we see there are apparently two suns.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 152)
what_is_truth_7

sorry if sick of hearing me.. I just don't want to appear rude or miss any opportunities!
This shows more than one person was involved from the beginning in the creation as God said ?us make?.
PRECISELY not three in one -ARIAN HERSEY ALL OVER AGAIN - HEAR O Israel the lord our God is not actually one God but Three in One

Did you not read the rest of the document/post you got that quote from!? I then showed how only possibility was for to be Holy Trinity as bible reveals was Gods' hands who made earth.
The child replied, "Thy work is stranger than mine, for thou art laboring to bring within the grasp of human intellect the conception of the trinity."
ok this is fun..actually amagine a childs voice speaking these words! lol
This fatherhood and sonship are allegorical and symbolical. The Messianic reality is like unto a mirror through which the sun of divinity has become resplendent. If this mirror expresses "The light is in me" - it is sincere in its claim; therefore Jesus was truthful when he said, "The Father is in me."
Why did you tell a story about how it isn't sensible to try grasp the wonders of God with our intellect, and then limit him with a view that clearly brings him down to working on our level within our boundaries limtis and understanding?
Or did you..sorry I'm really confused with your wording. I'm not great english student.
The mirror can not say I am the sun ...so they are differnt..like a photograph of me would clearly not be the same as another me running about the place. This is what the bible presents as a picture for the 3 members of the trinity. They are one. "The fullness of the godhead bodily" dwells in christ the scripture reveals. This is much mysterious/bigger than what you are explaining.
p.s. yes I am a evangelical...I prefer the title born again believer though. It is more detailed! thanx for the welcome! Keep searching!
Obviously Secret

I always get to thinkin bout the trinity sometimes. Lol The only thing I've seen that supports the trinity are those few, non-direct, quotes from the bible saying stuff with God then saying it simular with Jesus. If he was God he wouldn't seperate himself into third person two different ways like they are two different people, Oh well "the great mystery" or whatever.
I always wondered, "If Jesus was God, who the heck was he praying to all those times? himsef?" People always told me he prayed for inner strength. Why the hell would God pray for inner strength is beyond me lol. Oh well, I just say theres way more evidence against the trinity than for the trinity. All the trinity got is a few inconclusive lines that MAY be for the trinity. Lol I think I remember one time in the bible where it said God cried for his only begotten son Jesus because he was dying or something. OH WELL!!! People think we're going to hell if we think either one of these right? so oh well... I vote for the unity though. Come on I always hear people calling Jesus the son of God all day then switchin up saying he is God.
what_is_truth_7

hey obvious secret! I think you should keep searching. The best thing to do is believe what the scriptures say.
John 1The Eternal Word

Testimony of John the Baptist
(1) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend [1] it.
Here the Word is refering to Jesus. This again clearly shows he is also God. You should read my first post and you'll see alot of evidence of the Trinity.
I feel it is a most important topic as not believing in the Trinity would take away Jesus's ability to defeat sin and would make him also a liar and blasphemer for saying things like:
John 12: 44 Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.
Really think about this one dudes. Jesus is Lord (God is Lord!) and saviour (who else could defeat sin, the bible (in Romans) tells us that ?by grace you are saved through faith not by WORKS? You can?t earn you own way into God?s heaven. Not according to the Bible.) but God himself who alone is perfect..while we are all born in our sinful nature)

BIBLICAL PROOF OF THE TRINITY?

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