The problem with ecstatic religious experiences...

logansrun

For skeptics, true believers and people like me....

I have heard or read, on this forum and in other mediums, of people who claim to have had experiences that can only be described as "ecstatic, mystical, spiritual, supernatural" etc. They all claim that the experience was real, in fact, more real than reality itself. Sometimes these experiences involve a subtle, yet powerful, "still small voice" which is often interpreted as the voice of God. Others sense a oneness with the universe and experience feelings of bliss. Others have much more sensationalistic experiences: actually hearing voices, violent shaking of the body, seeing visions, glossolating, etc. All swear that their experience was real.

But there's a big problem: Many of the experiences contradict each other. Some experiences are frightening, others warm and inviting. Some feel a oneness with Jesus Christ, others the Buddha, others the Universe, others with Who Knows. Let me summarize a story I heard in a lecture on philosophy of religion:

There was a Christian minister who was mentoring an orphaned, young teenage boy. The two had drawn very close to one another and a true freindship was forming. The minister helped the young boy get a purpose in life and "clean up his act" so to speak.

One day the boy was playing around some machinary in the family's shed and accidentally, tragically was burned horribly. He was rushed to the hospital and had asked for the minister he had formed a friendship with to come by. The minister was called and entered the room. Devastated at the site of the permanantly disfigured boy, the man started praying. After a few minutes, the minister could not take the pain any longer and ran out of the hospital room all the way to his house. There he got down on his knees and prayed with the utmost intensity, saying aloud:

"Oh God! Oh dear Jesus God, please let the fire in Hell not be a literal fire!"

At this point the man said he felt a hand at his back and heard a voice which said, "I'm sorry Bob, but that's just the way it is."

The above account was related as a first-hand religious experience with the utmost conviction. The minister from that day forward felt a fire (no pun intended) to minister to people so as to save them from what he KNOWS is the literal, flesh-burning fire of Hell.

Needless to say this account does not correspond with the vivid experiences of others who claim a more loving God. (Hi Ross)

What is one to make of all of this? If everyone who experienced a mystical and/or supernatural phenomenon in their lives described the same thing, then that would add a lot of validity to what they are saying. It would be as if an experiment were repeated over and over again and the results turned out the same. But that does not happen. The experiences are varied. The man who claimed an insight that Hell was literal would scoff at the insights of people who experienced a different Jesus (or Buddha, or Kandalini).

Comments?

Bradley

franklin J

interesting post, Bradley

as a JW, I NEVER had any kind of religious experience like these.

I have, however, had many experiences that have brought me "catharsis" bordering on rapture. None having anything to do with religion.

Nosferatu

I smelled burnt toast once when I was toasting a pop tart. Does that count?

LittleToe

So much is in the interpretation, huh?

This is one main reason why I still hold the bible in regard. I see it as an attempt by people who had "spiritual" experiences to relate and record them.
I personally wonder about the interpretation placed upon their experiences (especially in the OT), but accept a common thread.

I've mentioned recently that I'm currently studying the commonality of belief systems.
So far the results are that a spiritual system should be steeped in a precept of "love".
It appears to be a common denominator.

Hence the "two laws" are still good to go, and produce positive benefits to the whole of humanity as well.

The divisons seem to come about once we start getting dogmatic that our interpretation is the correct one. THis appears to be a very huiman thing, as it's also seen in the various fields of science, too...

Undaunted Danny

Minds are like books they must be open to be useful.Nevertheless,I at this time regard all 'higher plane' mystical/spiritual experiences to be hysteria and or delusion.

I wish with all my heart and mind that I am proven wrong.[Matthew 10:29,30] Jesus said if his follower had faith the size of a mustard seed,he/she could move mountains.Im waiting.

"Amen come Lord Jesus"

logansrun

Ross,

I agree with what you said in prinicple. Very noble, indeed. But, how do you explain the hand on the back, the voice, HELL, and all that? If you say that that was just in the guy's head (he was in a psychologically vulnverable moment) then cannot someone say that about anyone's religious experience?

And if the man simply "interpreted" the experience wrongly, how is one to know that other religious experiences which are more inviting are also not an invalid interpretation?

Sorry, I used the right brain this morning. Now I'm switching to the left...

B.

Nosferatu

So far the results are that a spiritual system should be steeped in a precept of "love".
It appears to be a common denominator.

It's when you break "Love" down and discover what the parts of it are, you get to understand what the hell is going on around you. In my opinion, "Love" is never the common denominator of anything.

Markfromcali

The problem with experiences is simply that it is only an experience, religious or otherwise.

People who have intense experiences tend to want to take issue with that, there is clearly the position that a certain class of experiences are special. I would point out that this indicates an attachment to experience if nothing else. I've been there myself. Although it may not have all the same exact bells and whistles, I know that attachment and see it clearly when it sticks out like a sore thumb.

This is not to say the experience is not significant, but it's important to put things in context here. An experience is something limited in time, if you're talking about religious experiences then it has something to do with ultimate reality. How is a relative experience - and they are all relative - going to say anything about the absolute? An experience has a beginning and an end, by any system of spirituality that is not the case with ultimate reality.

For those who are so inclined - what is it that has the experience? As I've mentioned in my posts before, stop focusing on the content for a second and look back at that which is experiencing.

LittleToe

Bradley:

And if the man simply "interpreted" the experience wrongly, how is one to know that other religious experiences which are more inviting are also not an invalid interpretation?

You look to the fruit...

Sorry, I used the right brain this morning. Now I'm switching to the left

Try balancing out both, to get the desired result

Nos:
You'll have to break that down. As you've left it, your comment makes absolutely no sense to me.

IMHO "love" IS the common denominator, but I'm not talking about the squooshy stuff (just as I tend to put a rather precise definition on the wrod "faith", in the spiritual context).

dolphman

A good article on this can be found here:

http://spirituality.indiatimes.com/articleshow/498605.cms

The issue comes down to this, many are the names and paths but ultimately it all leads to one destination. The problem is that god and divinity is formless, but for it to be measured by humans, i.e. understood, it has to take some kind of form. Be it a name, a creature. But in and of itself it is formless. But for a human mind to begin to approach it, it needs to be something tangible.

That's why there are so many different gods and teachings. But at their very cores, they are for the most part teaching the same thing.

What the experiment should be based on is if there is a metaphysical world at all, not a particulair one.

As far as mystical experiences go, 90% of them are probably related to mental disorders. But it all it takes is 1% of them to be real and you have to realize something is at work outside our normal perception.

One thing to ponder, the word "Human" is Sanskrit in origin. It literally means "God Thought". Maybe that's all we are.

The problem with ecstatic religious experiences...

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