The problem with ecstatic religious experiences...

by logansrun 26 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  LittleToe

  Dolph:
  Interesting use of hyperbolic statistics...

  Other than the 90% thing, I think I generally agree with you.
• 

  itsallgoodnow

  IMO There could be some physiological reason for this experience having to do with the stress he was under, making him suggestible to the idea or impression that he was having a mystical experience. I think it has something to do with the brain shutting down from the great stress he was under, which made it possible for him to think he was having this experience.

  There's a lot scientists are discovering about our brain functioning that seem to explain this kind of thing as a physiological response.
• 

  dolphman

  I was just making that statistic up. I have no idea statistically speaking how many people are crazy or not. But there are a lot. But then again, there are those with legitimate experiences as well.
• 

  Princess

  My friend is being guided through a court case involving her husband's disfellowshipped ex-wife, by a voice she hears. She knows all will turn out well in the end because the voice tells her so.

  Is this any different from the minister? They both heard a voice.

  So much in life will never be fully understood until we are dead...and maybe not even then.
• 

  LittleToe

  So much in life will never be fully understood until we are dead...and maybe not even then.

  So dogmatic!!
  Just think of the advances in so many spheres, just during our lifetimes...
  
• 

  GentlyFeral

  OK, assume for the moment that there are actually invisible people capable of communicating with us.

  That doesn't mean they know everything.

  Just because they have more-than-human powers doesn't mean that they have human powers. It doesn't prevent them from being full of s***, or at least mistaken on some subjects. Why, my own imaginary invisible friends have occasionally told me things I don't believe.

  And then there's the "wishful thinking" factor - or, in the case of the frightened pastor, the "programming" factor. It might well have been his upbringing, rather than his actual God, who said "That's just the way it is." For mystics and other theists, sifting is a delicate process that requires much experience. Myself, I'm barely getting started. So I don't talk about my own visions much.

  GentlyFeral
  live from Ooga Booga Land
• 

  Princess

  So dogmatic!!
  Just think of the advances in so many spheres, just during our lifetimes...
  

  It's not dogmatic. You won't truly KNOW what happens at death until you die. The little voices can tell you, but as GF said, we can't assume they know. You think you know from what you've read, but honestly, you will not know until you die. If the answer is nothing, than you won't know then either. So there.

  Discuss amongst yourselves....
• 

  Gretchen956

  But there's a big problem: Many of the experiences contradict each other

  I just want to comment on this one thing. Thats sort of a JW expectation, isn't it? That salvation, or religion, or religious experience or zen if you will, is going to look the same for everyone. I believe very strongly that each of us finds our own path. I really don't think any two look very much alike even within traditional religions.

  As for who may experience these types of things, I think that might surprise you. Although not a christian, I can remember well that the very logical minded apostle paul had such an experience.

  If it isn't your thing fine. Cool.

  Gretchen
• 

  FMZ

  Extremely interesting thread Bradley... the question almost nullifies the conversation we had in Dallas... hehe

  One of those unanswerable questions that sometimes goes through my mind is... The taste of celery makes me want to vomit, yet other people really love it... How can they possibly love that taste? Could it be possible that to them it tastes completely different? (Again, unanswerable, so please no-one even try!)

  My point in this is that in one way or another, we all experience things quite differently. In the example you gave of the priest, the hand on his back and the voice may simply have been the best way for him to come to a realization of the facts. In exactly the same position, others may have just had a "feeling", even a vision. When the facts from differing experiences clash, (i.e. hellfire / no hellfire) about the only thing we can do is to ask for the answer... and quite possibly we may have an experience not much different from the priest .

  But... what am I saying? This is all fluff... lol. Knowing whether there is a literal hellfire or not really isn't the point of such experiences. Sure, as Ross says, one of the common denominators is love, but have you noticed another one that results from said love? All the people who have these experiences generally want to shout them from the rooftops! It gets people talking about spiritual things, Jesus, and (yes) love. In the grand scheme of things, that's what it is all about.

  FMZ
• 

  LittleToe

  Grechen:
  Nicely put.

  FMZ:
  Regarding different (and sometimes contradictory) experiences, have you considered that the end result is the purpose for which they occur? Things seem to work back-to-front in Ga-ga land.

  In the case of the Minister, his concern for "lost souls" drove him on a quest to reveal the "love of God".
  Without knowing more about the man, and how he acted before this event, we can only surmise that before-hand he was perhaps a little wishy-washy.