Are non-trinitarians polytheistic or monotheistic?

grzesiek32

Are non-trinitarians polytheistic or monotheistic?

Every non-trinitarian claims that he/she is moneteistic, because they believe in only one God who is over all other gods. In their opinion Jesus is also ?a god” written in a lowercase 'g'. But if they claim that they have to take account of some issues that stem from the Bible.

DBY Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, I am HE, And there is no god with me; I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal, And there is none that delivereth out of my hand, But when JHVH said those words, Jesus existed:

DBY John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. We can see, that they have 2 gods - one greater and one lesser. But non-trinitarians would say, that this argument isn't good, because in Bible there are other gods in a positive sense (see Jn 10:34-36 and Ps 8:6).

But believing in one God goes hand in hand with some demands made by Bible:

1. We have to serve God only (Mt 6,24)
2. We have to worship God only (2Kings 17,37-39)
3. Only God can be ?Our God” (Ex 20,3)

What's more there are some charakteristic matters connected with being true God. Although they weren't forbiden in case of other gods and people, but we cannot find any fragments showing that it was allowed in other cases.

4. We have to believe in Him
5. We have to call His name
6. We have to be His witnesses.

1. We have to serve God only

NIV Matthew 6:24 "No one can serve two masters (kuriois). Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money. In this verse Bible shows us that we should serve only one master (lord), because if we served two masters it would be possible that we would hate one of them. In some way we can serve other masters:

NIV 1 Timothy 6:2 Those who have believing masters are not to show less respect for them because they are brothers. Instead, they are to serve them even better, because those who benefit from their service are believers, and dear to them. These are the things you are to teach and urge on them. But Jesus meant serving in an absolute sense. It is generally known that everything in Bible has the absolute meaning and a relative one. Those earthly masters are masters in a relative sense, but Jesus is a Master in the absolute sense:

DBY 1 Cor 8,5-6
5 For and if indeed there are those called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, (as there are gods many, and lords many,)
6 yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. We can see, that Jesus is such Lord (kurios) as His Father is God (theos).

but JHVH is also our Master:

DBY Psalm 8:1 [...]. Jehovah our Lord, [...] The Scripture orders us to serve Jesus many times:

DBY Jn 12,26 If any one serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there also shall be my servant. And if any one serve me, him shall the Father honour. See also Jn15:20, Rom 1:1, 14:18, 16:18, 2Cor11:23, Col 3:24, 4:12, Tit 1:1, James 1:1, 2 Ptr 1:1, Jude1:1

So non-trinitarians break rules by serving two masters or break rules by not serving Jesus. One can say, that the first person who was polytheistic was Paul who couldn't make up his mind whom he should serve. have a look at this:

NIV Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus [...]

NIV Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God [...]

2. We have to worship God only:

NIV 2 Kings 17,37-39
37 You must always be careful to keep the decrees and ordinances, the laws and commands he wrote for you. Do not worship other gods.
38 Do not forget the covenant I have made with you, and do not worship other gods.
39 Rather, worship the LORD your God; it is he who will deliver you from the hand of all your enemies." Considering Jn 5,23:

NIV John 5:23 that all may honor (timao) the Son just as they honor (timao) the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. the problem is very similar to the previous one. Jesus wants us to prise him in the absolute meaning. The word 'honour' isn't the best translating of the word 'timao' (verb) time (noun). This Greek word meaning always depends on the context. The greater majestry, the greater 'timao'. 'Timao' isn't always the same.

Compare:

NIV 1 Corinthians 12:23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor (time). And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty,

NAB 1 Timothy 5:3 Honor (timao) widows who are truly widows. and that:

NIV Revelation 4:11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor (time) and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being." So timao sometimes should be translated into 'respect' and sometimes (depending on the context) into worship. Timao isn't always the same. Have a look at that fragment:

NIV Mk 7,6-7 He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "'These people honor (timao) me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship (sebomai) me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'

So we can see, that the word 'timao' in the highest meaning is a synonym of 'sebomai'. Whats more, 'time' often goes with 'doxa', so it also can be a synonym of that word. Every Polish Bible (except NWT translated by WTS) translates 'timao' into 'czcic' (worship) when this word refers to God. But when it refers to people it is often translated into 'szanowac' (respect).

what is more about God's glory. Have a look at this:

NIV Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols. And if we look at a fragment from Revelation, we will see that Father shares his glory with His Son:

NIV Rev 5,12-13 In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!"
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped.

3. Only God can be ?Our God” (Ex 20,3)

NIV Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me. The first positive person who broke this prohibition was Thomas:

NIV John 20:28 Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" and wasn't rebuked for this.

4. We have to believe in Him:

I couldn't find any verse where it is writen that we should believe in a man. But Jesus told us to believe in Him as in His Father:

NIV John 14:1 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me.

5. We have to be His witnesses:

NIV Isaiah 43:10 "You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. It was said in OT. But NT tells us to be witnesses of Jesus:

NIV Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." From that moment Jesus' disciples call themselves his witnesses (martus):

DBY Revelation 2:13 I know where thou dwellest, where the throne of Satan is; and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in the days in which Antipas my faithful witness was, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.

DBY Acts 22:20 and when the blood of thy witness Stephen was shed, I also myself was standing by and consenting, and kept the clothes of them who killed him.

DBY Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunk with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the witnesses of Jesus. And I wondered, seeing her, with great wonder. But I couldn't find any witnesses of the Father in NT. In some way we could say, that Jesus is greater than His Father, because He competes with Him :-)

6. We have to call his name.
In this case we can also say, that Jesus competes with His Father. In NT I could find only a few verses showing that we should call on the name of Christ, but I couldn't find any showing that we should call on the name of Father.

DBY 1 Corinthians 1:2 to the assembly of God which is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called saints, with all that in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both theirs and ours:

DBY Acts 9:14 and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call upon thy name. Even some fragments from OT apostles refered to Jesus:

DBY Rom 10,9-13
9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from among the dead, thou shalt be saved.
...
13 For every one whosoever, who shall call on the name of the Lord, shall be saved. Non-trinitarians would say that this fragment refers to JHVH, not Jesus. But JHVH does't always have to refer to the Father. The name 'JHVH' was a synonym of the word 'God' and sometimes could refer to the Father (Ps 110,1), sometimes to Jesus (Hbr 1,10 and Ps 102,24-28; Iz 44,24; 45,11-12 and so on...) and maybe sometimes to the Spirit and to the Trinity.

Saying that their monotheism is based on the belief in the highest God isn't a good argument because the ancient Greece also believed in the highest god - Zeus and they were politeistic. But in this case worshipping the Father is always connected with worshipping the Son (Jn 5,23 [...] He who does not [timao] the Son does not [timao] the Father[...]) and worshipping the Son is always connected with worshipping the Father (Phil 2,10-11 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.)

Translated on 08-June-2004 form my Polish article:
http://www.trynitarysci.republika.pl/artykuly/gz/politeiscigz.html

LittleToe

Do you have a hobby?

Tell us a little about yourself...

You've been here since at least November, and done nothing but spout theology.
Now I like theology better than most, but that really isn't what this board is about...

So, please, humour me.
Who are you?

ellderwho

grzesiek32,

Good read. Its almost amusing to listen to a Jw spin Jesus into a created being, while trying not to 'really' worship him.

Hey LT enjoyed your story about Dallas and the pics also.

E.

LittleToe

Sorry, I should have been a bit clearer about enjoying the post, too
I just want to know a bit more about the person behind it.

Ellderwho:
Thanks. I had a lovely time.
We've got to meet up, sometime, too

ellderwho

LT, yes we should, meet up that is. I was serving in the Navy back in ' 84 on board the USS Alexander Hamilton a submarine(my avatar) that was ported in Scotland (Holy Loch) for two years. I loved it.

I think we have another tinitarian on board eh?

E.

M.J.

I agree. Great read. I'll hang on to this one. There were many points made that I wasn't aware of. Thanks.

One other key verse I think is Isaiah 43:11: "I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior."

which of course comes right after the statement by YHWH that he never did or never will create another god alongside himself, and a chapter after he said He will not give his glory to another.

At the same time Paul writes:

"waiting for the blessed hope and manifestation of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, who did give himself for us, that he might ransom us from all lawlessness, and might purify to himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works;" (Titus 2:13,14, YLT)

Which I think only adds to the points you made.

gumby

When you figure out that Jesus was made a god-man by the gospel writers and nobody else.......then you will understand this trinity/non-trinity confusion and why the O.T. is contrary to the N.T. as far as who is to be worshipped. Don't you think if this book had gods backing.....he would have done a better job at clarifying who he is and who his son is? I left Christianity over this doctrine as this doctrine began my investigation into who wrote the bible and how it was formed.

Gumby

hooberus

Don't you think if this book had gods backing.....he would have done a better job at clarifying who he is and who his son is?

Gumby look closely at Hebrews Chapter 1.

Is it not clear that the Son is YHWH and not an angel ?

LittleToe

Ellderwho:
A Trinitarian, yes. Now we just need to find out if he's a Calvinist, or not
Did you travel the coasts of Scotland?

I seem to remember getting the opportunity to have a brief tour aboard a US Sub that came into port in the Hebrides, in the early 80's.
It'd be a funny coincidence if you were aboard it!

Hoob:
Chapter 2, too

gumby

Gumby look closely at Hebrews Chapter 1.
Is it not clear that the Son is YHWH and not an angel ?

Hoob, I have read that chapter many times. I've read ALL the scriptures that support/do not support, the Trinity. I got tired of trying to figure it out. I got tired of seeing millions of people trying to figure it out. I got tired of the arguments about it.

I figured since the bible was written...or shortly afterward, men have dabated this issue ever since. These men are way smarter than you and I.......and they still debate, argue. Why? There was no question who Peter was, or Paul, or James........why a question on who the most popular figure on the earth is? Why?

Unless god or his son like playing head games with people......there is no reason for the obscurity of who Jesus really is....other than he's an invention of man. He may have existed......but he was not diety.

Gumby

Are non-trinitarians polytheistic or monotheistic?

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