Joshua 5:13-15. Exactly who is this "Commander of the Lord's army?" Rev. 12:7 Michael & his Angels throw satan out of Heaven. Is it Michael? If so, the being who Joshua encountered said the ground He was standing on was holy, which is the same statement the Angel of the Lord said to Moses at the burning bush.
Also, Michael the Archangel in Daniel is spoke of being the protector of the Nation of Israel. When the Israelites were being led out of captivity from the Egyptians, the "Angel of the Lord," or the pre-incarnate Christ, was with them as the "pillar of fire." Do you see what I'm asking? I've got a lot more questions I could throw out but time is short. I'm not a Witness, but I wonder about this. Thanks.
Is Michael the Angel of the Lord?
by tracysdad 53 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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tracysdad
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kes152
Hey tracysdad,
When the Israelites were being led out of captivity from the Egyptians, the "Angel of the Lord," or the pre-incarnate Christ, was with them as the "pillar of fire."
I also used to believe that Christ was previously an angel.. but actually that is not possible. This is what I heard the holy spirit keep saying:
"To which of the angels has my Father EVER said:
'You are my son,
This day I have begotten you?'
And again:
'I shall be a father to you
and you will be a son to me?' "
Yes.. WHICH one of the angels has He ever said that? To Michael? If he did say that to Michael, then Hebrews 1:5-12 was an ENTIRELY futile argument.
Michael is Christ's angel who has a voice like a trumpet and announces the arrival of the king Jesus Christ, just like kings of the earth have certain men who announce their arrival.
1 Thessalonians 4:15,16
Revelation 1:2, 10
Revelation 4:1Notice The Lord's voice is that of "many waters."
Also, Michael the Archangel in Daniel is spoke of being the protector of the Nation of Israel.
Indeed he was, and Michael arrived WITH Christ to give Daniel understanding.
Daniel 8:16, 19 Gabriel sent to give Daniel understanding..
Daniel 9:21 Gabriel returns and Daniel RECOGNIZES him..
Daniel 10:5-7 Daniel sees another individual.. NOT Gabriel
Daniel 10:13, 21 This individual says Michael came to HELP him
Daniel 11:2 This individual says to Daniel the "truth."
If you read the entire chapter.. you will see this 'individual' is not spoken of as an angel, but rather a "priest."
Comparing the description of Daniel 10:5-7 with Revelation 1:13-15 you will see that this individual IS the Lord. And in Daniel 10:21 Michael was sent to help the Lord against the other "princes." Why would the Son of God recieve "help?" The same reason he recieved help while on the earth. He is a King and should not be left to "fend for himself."
Matthew 4:11
Luke 22:43
Matthew 26:53
John 16:32Angels are "workers" in the household... "ministering servants." Jesus is the Son in the household. That is why it was such a great thing that Jesus "emptied HIMSELF" and took the form of a "slave" and was obedient even to death. Angels are the "workers" and they are the ones who "should" have done it. But the Son WANTED to do it even though he was the Son and NOT a "worker."
So yes, Michael is angel of the Lord, the angel of Jesus Christ.
Peace to you,
Aaron -
tracysdad
Zechariah 3:1,2- The He showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. The LORD said to Satan, "The LORD rebuke you, Satan! The LORD, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you!"...
Jude 9-But even the Archangel Michael, when He was disputing with the Devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
The response from the Angel of the Lord in Zechariah & from Michael in Jude are very similar.
Many anti-witness books that I've read say that Jesus & Michael cannot be the same person because Jesus while on earth rebuked the Devil, & in Jude it says that Michael did not dare to rebuke Satan.
In 2 Peter 2:10-12 it says that Angels are more powerful than the ungodly, yet they are blasphemed. And, that these Angels will not rebuke these ungodly while they are in the presence of the Lord.(NIV) Could this be the reason that Michael didn't rebuke the Devil? Because He was in the presence of the Lord? In light of all of this, could Michael be that "Angel of God.?" If so, then He was Christ. -
pomegranate
tracysdad,
I believe some of your post is not right:
You said
>>in Jude it says that Michael did not dare to rebuke Satan.<<Jude says:
the Archangel Michael... said, "The Lord rebuke you!"The above IS a rebuke. Michael rebuked Satan by reminding Satan sternly that the Lord will rebuke him. What Jude says Michael dare not do was, "did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him(Satan)
You said:
>>In 2 Peter 2:10-12 it says that Angels are more powerful than the ungodly, yet they are blasphemed.<<Peter says:
2 Peter 2:10-11
11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.Blasphemy IS NOT mentioned here. Blasphemy is against God. This is talking about good angels making slanderous accusations to bad demons in the presence of the LORD. See Jude, Michael didn't do it (slanderous accusation), rather he rebuked Satan.
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tracysdad
Ok, but the point is that Michael did not dare to rebuke Satan in Jude 9. In Zechariah, the Angel of the Lord said the same thing almost. Forgetting the 2 Peter passage, the Angel of the Lord's statement & Michael's statement are almost identical.
In Joshua 5:13-15 Joshua was near Jericho when He came upon a being who identified himself as the "Commander of the army of the LORD." Joshua paid him reverance, & the angel told him to take off his sandals for He was standing on Holy ground, which is EXACTLY what the ANGEL of the LORD told Moses to do in Exodus 3:5. The passage states it was God talking to Moses. The title "Commander of the army of the LORD is what I'm wondering about. To me this means someone who is in charge of soldiers, or in this case, angels. Revelation 12:7 speaks of MICHAEL & his angels doing battle with the devil. Matthew 13:41 & Mark 13:27 speak of Christ sending, or coming with his angels.
I know that before He came to earth Jesus Christ was known as the "Angel of the Lord," the revelation of God to man. This "Angel" was the one who spoke to Moses at the burning bush, appeared to Abraham, & the presence that accompnied the Israelites out of Egypt as the pillar of fire. Thois ANGEL spoke for God, in the 1st person. This makes perfect sense to me because I believe Jesus Christ to be the Almighty God. However, sometimes I wonder about the connection between the Angel of the LORD & Michael. I'm confused.
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pomegranate
tracysdad....
Are you really?? May I see a picture of you and your sibling?
I hope I am not being to forward...
Would you like me to give my perspective on your last sentence??
tracysdad...I love your handle..
If it were me.... it would be hannahsdad. :)
peace and tons of love to you...
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tracysdad
Yes, I am Tracy's dad. I love my boy so much!!!
I would post a picture but I don't know how...
Give your perspective. Explain the connection between the Jude & Zechariah passages if you can.
Hannahsdad? I love that!
Dad's are cool...(mommy's too)
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kes152
Hello beloved,
May you both have peace! Long time no post.
tracysdad,
you are 100% correct that the 'angel of the Lord' and Michael said the EXACT same thing, namely, "The Lord rebuke you."
Jude 9
Zechariah 3:1, 2Pomergrante,
you said:
"The above IS a rebuke. Michael rebuked Satan by reminding Satan sternly that the Lord will rebuke him. What Jude says Michael dare not do was, "did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him(Satan)"
Actually.. it is not. Telling someone that they will be rebuked is NOT a rebuke. That is called a 'warning' OF a rebuke. It is the LORD who DOES rebuke. For instance, if you and I were disputing, and I said "May your mom punish you," does that mean I just punished you? Of course not! I have no 'authority' to punish you, but your mom does. It is the same here. Michael did not rebuke the Adversary, it was the Lord who did and will do it.
tracysdad,
you said ealier,
"In light of all of this, could Michael be that "Angel of God.?" If so, then He was Christ."
Is Gabriel and angel of God? Does that make him Christ? how about Ariel?
you also said:
"I know that before He came to earth Jesus Christ was known as the "Angel of the Lord," the revelation of God to man. This "Angel" was the one who spoke to Moses at the burning bush, appeared to Abraham, & the presence that accompnied the Israelites out of Egypt as the pillar of fire. Thois ANGEL spoke for God, in the 1st person. "
you are VERY close. He said the same way it happened with Moses, it happened with Abraham, and Jacob, and John. the key phrase that you said was:
"I know that before He came to earth Jesus Christ was known as the "Angel of the Lord," the revelation of God to man. "
Jesus was not known as the angel of the Lord.... Michael was. Looking in Revelaton 1:1,2 it says:
"A revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented it in signs THROUGH HIM to his slave John."
When God, our Father spoke to Moses, ... God's words were given to Jesus Christ who called out to Moses through his angel in the burning bush to his slave Moses. God words were given to Jesus Christ who spoke to Abraham through HIS angel to his "friend" Abraham. He is the Word of God. In Joshua... the same thing. Jesus' angel that spoke to Abraham, Moses, John, was Michael.. the "PRINCE of YOU people".. Israel.
Daniel 10:21
Remember .... no one stands strongly with Jesus Christ in matters regarding the chosen ones of God EXCEPT Michael, their prince. Both Michael and Jesus are the ones 'assisting Abraham's seed.'
Hebrews 2:16
Peace to you all,
Aaron -
pomegranate
To Aaron...
>>Actually.. it is not. Telling someone that they will be rebuked is NOT a rebuke. That is called a 'warning' OF a rebuke. It is the LORD who DOES rebuke. For instance, if you and I were disputing, and I said "May your mom punish you," does that mean I just punished you? Of course not! I have no 'authority' to punish you, but your mom does. It is the same here. Michael did not rebuke the Adversary, it was the Lord who did and will do it.<<
You mince words like a JW. Do you read the dictionary at all??? Michael assuredly "rebuked" Satan...Webster's please:
re·buke (ri-byook)tr.v. re·buked, re·buk·ing, re·bukes
1. To criticize or reprove sharply; reprimand. See Synonyms at admonish.2. To check or repress.
Did Michael do the above according to the dictionary?? Yes on both counts. Your example of "mom" is the same. Michael CRITICIZED Satan, he REPRIMANDED in that sentence. He "checked and repressed" Satan's conduct of the Moses body incident. Kes, don't start making up your own word definitions to support a wrong understanding. That's what witnesses do. Use you dictionary will you? The dictionary is PLAIN in supporting Michael REBUKED, ADMONISHED, REPRIMANDED, CRITICISED, CHECKED, REPRESSED Satan.
That's exactly what REBUKE means, and that's exactly what Michael did.
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pomegranate
tracysdad...
If you believe John 1:1 to be true, then Jesus can't be an angel. Ever.
Angels are created. God is not.
That would be the first point of my perspective.