Through the office of your son ...amen. You got off light. we used to have a billion superlatives - In the name of your son whom you the great purposer and desginer, sent to this earth.......20 mins later..and through the offices of your son.....20 mins.. amen The problem with religions is they all want you to obey them. Jesus said the two things that matter are - Love God and your neighbour as yourself. If you accept that Jesus is your salvation and follow those two edicts then everything else just falls away. I remember as a child being dragged up as a dub thinking if Jesus' load is light and he provides refreshment for your soul, why am I being pounded with all this stuff, If many books is wearisome to the soul, why are there so many books at the KH. The answer is that we are obeying men and being brain dubbed by them.
Deception in the Greatest Man Book
by truthseeker 37 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Room 215
Farkel's right about JWism being nothing more than neo-Judaism, papered over with a gossamer layer of Christianity. He's been reduced to a cypher, a mere ``area code" one must dial up in order to reach the Father.
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NeonMadman
Neon, was Jesus "the Son" from eternity, according to traditional trinitarian belief?
I believe that is what most trinitarians teach. Despite the equality of nature of the persons in the Trinity, there is nonetheless a subordination in terms of function. Sort of in the same way that you might work for an employer, and even though you are subordinate to the employer in the context of work, you are no less human that he is, and are his equal in every way. That's a rough illustration, but it at least demonstrates the difference between equality of function and equality of nature. This is why Jesus could say, "The Father is greater than I am," as opposed to saying "the Father is better than I am."
I'm sure there are others in this forum who could explain the doctrine better than I can - hooberus comes to mind. Once I get a few Systematic Theology courses under my belt (which is still a way off), I'll be glad to offer a better explanation. I did enjoy reading the book, The Forgotten Trinity, by James White. It cleared up a lot of my questions about the Trinity doctrine, and I recommend it.
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NeonMadman
I forgot all about this thread. We all make mistakes when I said christian literature I meant christian people. and not all I don't try to generalize. Just heard it from alot of people.
Well, that was my question in the first place. As I said in my response to gumby, I'm well aware that JW's commonly will claim to have "investigated many religions," when in fact they have not made any reasonably independent investigation; they have merely read about those religions in Watchtower publications. That's hardly what I would call an "investigation." Sort of like learning about Jesus only from the scribes and Pharisees (does that analogy sound familiar? ). So I thought that might be something like what you were doing.
On the other hand, if you have really heard people who profess to believe in the Trinity claim that Jesus is not the Son of God, then you have either misunderstood them, or have been talking to people who are seriously misinformed about doctrine. The Trinity doctrine, as taught in most Christian churches, absolutely accepts Jesus as being both Son of God and Son of man. The doctrine of the incarnation teaches that Jesus was God from eternity, and when He entered into human flesh, He took on a second nature, that of humanity. He will retain both natures forever, being both fully God and fully man. You may agree or disagree, of course, but that is what the doctrine teaches.
One of the problems with the Watchtower's view of the Trinity doctrine is that they distort the teaching in order to more easily defeat it. For example, a common JW question about the Trinity is, "who did Jesus pray to, himself?" But the doctrine does not teach that Jesus is the same person as the Father. It teaches that there are three distinct Persons, each of Whom is fully God, and that the three comprise the one God. Another Watchtower publication referred to the Trinity as a "bizarre three-headed god." Hardly a fair portrayal of the teaching. Since you are young and I'm guessing you were raised as a JW, it seemed very possible to me that you have not been in a position to examine the doctrine in an uncritical fashion, and therefore might have had in mind some of the Society's distortions of the doctrine rather than what it actually teaches.
As I said in my above post, I don't feel well qualified to expound on the Trinity doctrine. I hope to become better grounded on it in the future. Again, for a better exposition of the doctrine that is not overly technical, I'd recomment James White's The Forgotten Trinity.
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gumby
I'm well aware that JW's commonly will claim to have "investigated many religions," when in fact they have not made any reasonably independent investigation;
NM,
The same can be said about many christians....and others, concerning their faith. How much biblical criticism investigation do you suppose the average christian has done? Many are shocked to find out how much parallelism there is with older pagan religions when compared to the christian belief.
Gumby
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ellderwho
eli_JW
Welcome,
I hope you enjoy the forum. Its OK you can think here
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UnDisfellowshipped
Gumby said:
So did the Old Testement, .....funny how more than half a book leaves out the finale character.
Gumby, all throughout the entire Old Testament, Jesus is pointed to as the Savior of the world, especially in the Book of Isaiah:
Isaiah 53: 4-12: Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed Him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned, every one, to his own way; and the L ord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not His mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment, and who will declare His generation? For He was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgressions of My people He was stricken. And they made His grave with the wicked--but with the rich at His death, because He had done no violence, nor was any deceit in His mouth. Yet it pleased the L ord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief. When You make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the L ord shall prosper in His hand. He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great, and He shall divide the spoil with the strong, because He poured out His soul unto death, and He was numbered with the transgressors, and He bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
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Will Power
Room 215: He's been reduced to a cypher, a mere ``area code" one must dial up in order to reach the Father.
and isn't this being used "illegally"? Only the 144,000 (8,000 left) should have & use this "number". Jesus is said to be the mediator for these chosen ones only.
So says the ones who wish to take the place of Jesus, a kind of false Christ if you will. (bible based prophecy come true) The rank & file are left as orphans.