IS THE WTS a PROVEN FRAUD?

by Amazing 25 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  bigboi

  Oops:

  The account about Dale and Bette baker isn't on disfellowshipped.com. It was on a page called
  http://planetwatchtower.com I think. I know it was a web page set up by the couples son. I tred to find it but couldn't. It contains this 110 pg open letter they wrote to their fam and close friends. Has a lot of good research and experiences. It was a real big help to me. I don't know if the link I provided works though. Well iguess I'm about to find out.

  ONE....

  Bigboi

  "it ain't what ya do. it's how you do it" quote from the song "True Honeybunz" by Bahamadia
• 

  AlanF

  To Francoise:

  The Watchtower Society has indeed stated that JW leaders are prophets. For a comprehensive look at this, along with plenty of quotes from WTS literature, look at the article "The WTS and the End of the World" here: http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm . See especially the section "Why So Many False Alarms?"

  There you'll find court testimony from Fred Franz that it was not any man, but Jehovah who was the editor of The Watchtower magazine. So much for claims like You Know's that the GB only repeats what is in the Bible. Many JWs claim the same thing, and they're all liars.

  Here are a few samples from this essay, where the Society explicitly calls itself a prophet:

  Whom has God actually used as his prophet?.... Jehovah’s witnesses. -- The Watchtower, January 15, 1959, pp. 40-1.

  As Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first-century Christian congregation so he does today by means of the present-day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying on an intensified and unparalleled scale. -- The Watchtower, June 15, 1964, p. 365.

  There is a real need today for someone to speak as a true representative of God.... was there any group on whom Jehovah would be willing to bestow the commission to speak as a "prophet" in His name, as was done toward Ezekiel...? It is of importance to every individual on earth to identify the group that Jehovah has commissioned as his "servant" or messenger. -- The Watchtower, March 15, 1972, pp. 186, 189, 190.

  Check out this gem:

  Let us now unmistakably identify Jehovah’s channel of communication for our day.... Yes, particularly since 1919 has it been true that he has appointed the collective body of the anointed remnant over all the visible interests of the Kingdom.... It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the "slave" as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision. -- The Watchtower, June 15, 1957, p. 370.

  This obviously means that, even if one knows that JW leaders are wrong, "because it is His provision" one must obey JW leaders just as one must obey God. But that contradicts clear Bible statements about obeying God as ruler rather than men, checking what those who claim to "take the lead" tell you against the Scriptures, and so on. Such checking implies personal responsiblity, not the blind devotion demanded by JW leaders. A demand for blind obedience based on a claim of speaking for God is identically equal to a claim of inspiration.

  The book Holy Spirit -- The Force Behind the Coming New Order! said on pages 175-6:

  Here is what he [Jehovah] says in Isaiah 51:15, 16:

  "I, Jehovah, am your God, the One stirring up the sea that its waves may be boisterous. Jehovah of armies is his name. And I shall put my words in your mouth, and with the shadow of my hand I shall certainly cover you, in order to plant the heavens and lay the foundation of the earth and say to Zion, ‘You are my people.’ "

  No obstacle put in His way by the enemies will prove to be insurmountable for Jehovah. Just as at Mount Sinai He put his word in the mouth of his chosen people through the mediator Moses and thereafter he led them under the protective shadow of his hand into the Promised Land, so he has done for the remnant of spiritual Israel. He has put his word, his message of the hour, into the mouth of the spiritual remnant for them to confess openly before all the world, for their own salvation and for that of responsive hearers. A "great crowd" of "other sheep" have acted favorably upon what they have heard and have taken God’s word into their mouth.

  The question at the bottom of the page asked:

  [quote]In whose mouth has Jehovah put his word, and why has he covered these with the shadow of his hand?

  Anyone in whose mouth Jehovah has "put his word" is inspired by him, by definition. Such words are by definition, "God-breathed," and fit the definition given in the Insight book under "Prophet" and "Prophecy".

  Note the following about the above quotation: Of the "remnant of spiritual Israel" it states that God has actively "put his word" in their mouths. It is active in the same way as when God miraculously "put his word in the mouth of his chosen people" at Mount Sinai -- people who had no written word of God to take up and speak on their own. This active insertion of "his word" by God into peoples' mouths is contrasted with a passive taking of "God's word into" someone's mouth, which the above quote clearly states is done by "the great crowd of other sheep". It is this "anointed remnant" into whose mouths the Society claims that God has actively put his word that the Society claims is the
  inspired channel of communication [/b] between God and the uninspired "great crowd" and the rest of mankind.

  Jehovah's Witnesses like You Know are extremely uncomfortable with claiming that their leaders are actually inspired. But that is what those false prophets really do claim. No amount of whining that that isn't what they really mean will change the fact that, in their own literature, JW leaders claim active, direct inspiration and angelic direction.

  AlanF
• 

  Osarsif

  bigboy wrote:

  > The account about Dale and Bette baker isn't on
  > disfellowshipped.com. It was on a page called
  > http://planetwatchtower.com I think. I know it
  > was a web page set up by the couples son. I
  > tred to find it but couldn't. It contains this
  > 110 pg open letter they wrote to their fam and
  > close friends.

  Planet WT: http://geocities.com/avwxman/
  Baker's letter: http://geocities.com/avwxman/Letter5web.html
• 

  AlanF

  Incorrigible liars like You Know like to claim that Jehovah somehow directed C. T. Russell and his buddies to make a number of predictions about 1914 that came true. The fact is that not a single thing that these false prophets predicted came true.

  They claimed that Christ's "parousia" or presence had already begun in 1874, not that it would occur in 1914, so they certainly had nothing to do with a 1914 "parousia" even if it came about as JWs claim today.

  They claimed that "the last days" and the "time of the end" had already begun in 1799, so they certainly made no advance predictions about it starting in 1914.

  They claimed that both Christ's Millennial Reign and the Battle of Armageddon had already begun in 1874, and they were clearly wrong about them.

  They claimed that major events would occur between 1904 and 1910, and that these would lead directly to complete anarchy at the end of the Battle of Armageddon, which would result in the complete destruction of all human institutions not later than 1914. When 1904 rolled around and nothing had occurred, Russell came up with new ideas that pushed events up closer to and even after 1914. But again nothing that he predicted came to pass.

  The only thing that JWs today have to grasp from Russell's predictions is the bare and meaningless phrase "end of the gentile times". Russell predicted that they would end in either 1914 or 1915, and as proof that this was about to occur he offered all sorts of 'proofs' from current events, just as JWs do today about the impending Armadeddon "so soon at hand". Russell also claimed that the Bible told about many major events that would accompany this "end of the gentile times". Since not a single concrete thing that he predicted occurred, it's obvious that all of his claims were wrong. The only thing left of Russell's predictions that has not been explicitly falsified by physically observable events is the invisible, unaccompanied and therefore quite meaningless notion of "the end of the gentile times". But even that is falsified by the chronology of the Bible itself, and by secular chronology that is perfectly in harmony with Bible chronology, neither of which are in harmony with Watchtower chronology.

  And of course Russell, like JWs today, used the standard excuse used by all false prophets -- that "there will be scoffers" -- to dismiss their critics. As if scoffing at ridiculous notions somehow proves them! What a bunch of fools JW leaders and apostates like You Know are!

  AlanF
• 

  bigboi

  Osarsif:

  Thanks for the info/correction assist duly noted I don't want to lose this again.

  Thanks again!

  ONE...

  bigboi

  "it ain't what ya do. it's how you do it" quote from the song "True Honeybunz" by Bahamadia
• 

  bigboi

  Hey Everybody:

  Here's that quote from Dale Baker:

  In the years preceding 1914, there was widespread fear of world war, which many felt was inevitable(4). Russell, however, did not expect war to break out in 1914. Note this comment made in a Watchtower article in 1893:

  "A great storm is near at hand. Though one may not know exactly when it will break forth, it seems reasonable to suppose that it cannot be more than twelve or fourteen years yet future."

  Twelve or fourteen years from 1893 would be 1905 or 1907 - not 1914. So actually Russell was preaching that if war did break out it would have to be some years prior to 1914, when he expected God's kingdom to be fully established over earth. In actuality, none of the events that Russell predicted to happen did. And the one thing he did not expect to happen did. Does that "prove" the correctness of his prediction?

  This how the society "spins" the situation today, as explaned by Bro. Baker.

  4. The Society tries to create the impression that World War I was an unexpected event, one which took the world by complete surprise, to support their contention that its origins were supernatural. For example, the 1/22/73 Awake quotes Joachim Remak: "Nowhere, even in the summer of 1914, was a calculated, advance decision made for global war." The 9/8/83 Awake quotes Henry Kissinger as saying that World War 1 "was a war no one wanted and a catastrophe that no one could have imagined." While such statements may reflect the personal opinions of the individuals quoted, yet historians give a completely different picture. For example, Barbara Tuchman, in The Guns of August, traces the historical origins of the war from the standpoint of the actions taken by the governments involved. It is clear that the Germans began working on the battle plans for a war against France shortly after the Franco-Prussian war. The French became aware of such plans in 1904 when an officer of the German General Staff defected and gave the battle plan to the French authorities.

  Points to ponder.

  ONE....

  Bigboi

  "it ain't what ya do. it's how you do it" quote from the song "True Honeybunz" by Bahamadia
• 

  larc

  Another thing that should be thrown into the mix, is the fact that the 1914 date is anchored to 607BC, a date not supported by historians. The JWs are off by 20 years. Since nothing earth shaking happened in 1934, I doubt that they will make a revision.
• 

  Copernicus

  And of course Russell, like JWs today, used the standard excuse used by all false prophets -- that "there will be scoffers" -- to dismiss their critics. As if scoffing at ridiculous notions somehow proves them! What a bunch of fools JW leaders and apostates like You Know are!

  An excellent point Alan, and one with which I couldn’t agree more.

  What is 1914 anyhow? It’s the cornerstone of JW chronology, the anchor for its “last days” prophecies, the qualifier of their doctrine's uniqueness, and the reference supporting their self-ordained status as prophets.

  While outside of dub-dom, the 1914 date is from our present perspective, little more than an interesting and rapidly fading historical footnote. Few today would even recognize its supposed significance in the secular sense, or are there even more than a smattering of people left alive who might recall its more immediate impact on the lives of those who experienced the first hand after-effects of the wars starting in that approximate period.

  YK said:

  As for 1914, clearly the Wt has attached way too many prophecies to that particular date.

  This much is true, and it probably explains their reticence to continue advertising that date as being one of spectacular importance, as well as their attempts to distance themselves from it - all the while diminishing its doctrinal validity. Unlike YK, even they can see the absurdities evident in their continued (and now no doubt embarrassing) reference to that date.

  What is clear to us though is that 1914 began the last days of this system and Christ's parousia.

  Clear? Clear to whom? Based on what? Any serious study of the “bible chronology” involved points to 1914 as no more then a coincidence in the stream of time. Anyone who has read “The Gentile Times Reconsidered” realizes that further argument on this point is moot, and that the society’s dishonest attempts to fabricate justifications for the argument show that it is an empty bag of tricks.

  In 1914 a great war occurred. Great wars occurred prior to that point, after that point, and will no doubt continue to occur. Without a legitimate chronology – which does not exist – there is absolutely no reason to attach any particular significance to that date. Beyond wishful thinking that is.

  There is no need for God to inspire his servants to utter any new messages because our message is based entirely on the Scriptures.

  Thank you for acknowledging the obvious, that the MANY new “messages” advocated by the WTS over the years were not inspired. I wonder then why they felt the “need” to proclaim them? Self-justification maybe? Arrogance? Delusion? How humble of them.

  As Jesus said: “YOU do not believe me, believe the works, in order that YOU may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father.” Yes, the works of the WTS are certainly a basis for belief in its position as Christ’s visible organization on earth. And certainly their many prophetic inventions are proof of them being in union with the father as his spokesman today. Yes, I can see that very clearly.

  It doesn’t matter what they predicted or expected

  It doesn’t matter? It matters to me. And I’m sure it matters to the many people to whom I taught that [false or perhaps overly exaggerated] history as a JW, only later to have it revisited and silently recanted by those who claim to represent a god of truth.

  Look, in 1914 all hell broke lose. I can understand how a little group in America, steeped in the religious hysteria of the times and scared to death, saw great omens in the unfolding of that moment in history. But it has been played out. It's time to move on. That will be hard to do for the org until it cuts loose of the 1914 anchor. And it’s busy cutting away at the chain as we speak. Dealing with it by calling the intrusions of reality (such as the failing of the generation prophecies) new light only makes it that much more unpalatable to those who can see it for what it is.

  Faith in God? They don’t even have faith in themselves.
• 

  joelbear

  Within our lifetime the Watchtower will drop the 1914 doctrine.

  I predict it will be before 2014.

  Joel
• 

  Moxy

  uh-oh, more prophecy joel? i think you should define up-front what you mean by 'within our lifetime' - is this applying to people old enough to understand the events of our times or would it apply to babies too?

  mox