That you have the unmitigated gall to compare
Christ Yeru, do you ever run out of red-faced blowhard righteous indignation?
I don't think my comparisons are a stretch at all.
Jesus and Jihad (NY Times op/ed regarding fundy 'Left Behind' books)
by DanTheMan 37 Replies latest social current
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DanTheMan
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Yerusalyim
I don't think my comparisons are a stretch at all.
Really? How many Christian Terror groups are there...and how many people have they murdered this year...oh, and how many televised beheadings...
Come on...disliking Christians is one thing...comparing them to a group of people that actively murder innocent people in terribly cruel ways...that's over the top.
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DanTheMan
I just can't see where there's this huge (or even very small) difference in the underlying mentality of a JW, evangelical, or fundy, who dream of the day (and gleefully read literature depicting the bloody glory of it all) when God throws the unbelievers into hell (or in the case of JW's "destroys" them) and the radical Islamist who takes it upon himself to do what he believes to be God's will by killing non-muslims.
I just can't. Sorry!
I think your use of the phrase "mete out justice" is sugar-coating. Mete out justice = throw into hell/murder permanently.
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Abaddon
Yeru
We now reach the stage where you start attacking yourself. You said;
Not all who believe in a rapture believe that God will Physically destroy those oppossed to them...many believe those who choose AGAINST GOD will be automattically translated to hell, which is where they've chosen to be.
You were saying that rather than being destroyed, the victims of psychogod's 'judgement' would be translated to hell. My point was thay in hell or destoyed, they are still dead. You now attack me for repeating a line of doctrine, saying;
"Burning in hell" most of the christian denominations I have studied do NOT believe in a fire and brimstone hell as they are accussed of by the WTS and now you.
Now do you want to discuss the difference between;
... and the effect of what is traditonally called hellfire?
Or are you honest enough to accept that those who believe in the rapture believe all those they disagree with will have their physical lives ended and then have some non-corporeal element tourtured by god?
I love the fact that you try to blame humans for being punished after their lives, making it out to be an unpressured choice all have equal opportunity to take. Are you a closet Calvanist?
Well, first of all, my concept of God, and in fact most christians with whom I am familiar do not believe god torments ANYONE for eternity. The torment is self imposed, those in hell CHOOSE to be thre.
The Borg say the same thing, in effect, that those who don't follow god have made a choice. And you are willing to adopt changes in the traditonal interpretation of the Bible like the above whilst retaining other traditional interpretations, all the basis of your opinion. Get a mirror and a prayer mat Yeru, you don't need much else.
Oh, any more fat jokes Yeru? Do they sack you if you get too big?
You continue to justify hate;
Which is worse, those who take their idea of justice into their own hands and kill their religious enemies, or those who wait on God to deliver justice?
Well, I think both are scum if the justice they are waiting for the extinctinon of most of human life. Let me run that sentence by you with a change;
Which is worse, those who sexually assault children with their own hands and kill them, or those who consume depictions or stories of the same?
Obviously people who murder are far worse, but in the above example both are scum. Makes your pleading a bit hollow.
Really? How many Christian Terror groups are there...and how many people have they murdered this year...oh, and how many televised beheadings...
Oh, your fellow religonists and country men were funding the IRA through NORAID for years. American dollars funding the deaths of Irish and English civilians, men, women and children. That was when it was okay to support Christian terrorists in the USA... now fortunately, things are changing;
http://web.morons.org/article.jsp?sectionid=1&id=1491&_msg_2872=f
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A1196-2003Jun1?language=printer
Of course, there are far less potential terrorists in the developed world, as the drivers of such things - ignorance, poverty, oppression, fundamentalistic and totalitarian belief structures - are less prevalent than in the developing world. Which is why terrorism is a CULTURAL feature; even in the advantaged West there are still evil bastards who kill in the name of Biblegod.
And they are rejected, rightly, by peace-loving Christians, just as peace-loving Muslims reject Islamic terrorism.
But to me, someone who would kill me, or who is waiting for me to be killed by god, are just different degrees of scum.
DanTheMan
As for your comment regarding my experience with the witlesses making me jaded towards all religion - my response would be - your indirect experience with the witlesses has failed to enlighten you to the heart of bloodlust that permeates the true believing JW, evangelical, fundy & radical Islamist, making them essentially different variations of the same tired song
Well put, but it is in the catagory of putting the secretions of molluscs in front Sus domesticus.
Yeru has to hate, although he'll probably come up with some stunning display of self-deception about the definiton of hate (hate the sinner not the sin - a very popular concept in Christian-white supremesict groups). Yeru is fairly equal opportunity in his hate; socialists. gays (I think denying someone the same rights as yourself for no good reason is a form of hate), Muslims.
And by the choice of his reading material he like books where a psychopathic diety inflicts pain and suffering on intelligent creatures as it is too petty to do otherwise. And that's just the Bible; the fact he reads religious snuff novels says far more than one really wants to know.
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Yizuman
DanTheMan,
What about when Satan comes out and demands that everyone bears his mark and commands everyone to search for "fundies" like me that refuses his mark and would reward you like 10k to bring my unmarked head to them. Would you support the beheadings of "fundies" like me?
Yiz
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Sirona
Yeru
I know I'm sidestepping the main part of the discussion here but I can't help pointing out that this comment:
With the exception of SOME Buddhists and the Unitarians I thought ALL religion was a "we're right you're wrong" approach.
is total tripe
Sirona
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Abaddon
Ah, the voice of reason from Yizuman;
What about when Satan comes out and demands that everyone bears his mark and commands everyone to search for "fundies" like me that refuses his mark and would reward you like 10k to bring my unmarked head to them. Would you support the beheadings of "fundies" like me?
So, Yiz, do you read the "Left Behind Books"? Do you approve of using the destruction of mankind (as actually believed in and looked forward to by many people - it's not like anyone thinks 'Starship Troopers' will happen or looks forward to seeing their fellow humans eatenb by bugs) as light entertainment for those who think they'll be in the rapture?
I suppose if you DO think it's okay to find the death of humanity who diagrees with you as entertaining, then it would be fair for 'us' to deliver your head up to Satan, Santa or even someone called Stan if they had the money.
Fortunately for you, I think I can speak for the majority of us here when I say that 'we' wouldn't hunt you down and behead you for 10k, 100k, or even 1m, even IF (you might disapprove of the books too) you found our own deaths entertaining.
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Yizuman
Abaddon
The main theme of Christianity is to save, not to destroy. Anyone that rejects the message is only destroying themselves by the choice they make. God is not out to destroy, but to save. Unfortunantly, the vast majority of man chooses otherwise. They make the decision and if the decision is to have nothing to do with God and to be eternally seperated from God, then their choice will be respected and granted. If man doesn't want to be saved, then there's nothing God and I can do about it.
I'm sorry that the Borg warped your sense of the truth and understanding. I can only do my best to help you understand who and what God is, but there's so much in words that's hard to describe God's love and His plan for the world. I am also equally sorry that since after the Borg, you can no longer trust any religion since you got suckered by one once. Which makes it VERY understandable about distrusting God and His Son Jesus.
The Borg was never a Christian religion, never was one and never will be. They abused the Bible for their own profitable gain. They also abused the bible to destroy your sense of identity, families, friends, etc. That made you very angry and your anger turned into bitterness and distrust. I don't think you are alone.
The way I see it, Satan has done a superb job at putting you where he wants you to be. First, getting you suckered by a false religion, then later after finding out how false the Borg truly is, you left it and you became bitter and angry. Now you distrust anything religion, which suits Satan just fine. Since he's not gonna worry about you getting saved.
The main theme for Satan is that he wants to make sure that no one gets saved, because he knows his time is short and since he knows that, he's gonna make sure he can take as many people with him when he goes down. He's that crazy.
This is why there are so many false religion around the world, the number one theme of ALL false religion is that they never tell you that Jesus is the only way to salvation. They tell you that there are "other" ways to earn your salvation, one is just simply "being good". Which of course, that's not enough, the bible says "none is good and all have fallen short of the glory of God".
I think you've read enough from us "fundies" to know well enough to know what we believe, yet all the while, blind to the obviousness of the truth. Honestly, I really don't know how or what to say to convince you otherwise, as I can see it, I can't. I can only pray, which is as far as I can go.
Yiz
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Yerusalyim
Sirona,
If it's total "tripe" prove me wrong.
Y,
I just can't see where there's this huge (or even very small) difference in the underlying mentality of a JW, evangelical, or fundy, who dream of the day (and gleefully read literature depicting the bloody glory of it all) when God throws the unbelievers into hell (or in the case of JW's "destroys" them) and the radical Islamist who takes it upon himself to do what he believes to be God's will by killing non-muslims.
I just can't. Sorry! That is just plain scary, it means you have no moral bearing whatsoever. There is a huge difference between those who believe it's ok to kill innocent people and those who hope in God for Justice. That would also very logically mean that you would see it as ok to punish christians for hoping in God the way a Terrorist is punished for beheading someone.
I think your use of the phrase "mete out justice" is sugar-coating. Mete out justice = throw into hell/murder permanently. See, you keep bringing your JW understanding of what Christians say hell is into this conversation. You were misinformed by the JW's sorry. Those in hell are NOT DEAD...and they are EXACTLY where they want to be. Those in hell do NOT want to be with God...so they are in the only place in creation where they can be away from him...Hell. It's not a literal lake of burning fire....They are consumed with the fire of their hate for God
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Abaddon
Ah Yiz, you're a curious man. You can, I am afraid, come over as spittle-flecked and unreasonable as they get. When you take the time to reply in a decent fashion you come over completely differently. Reasonable and agreeable even if one doesn;t AGREE with your opinion. Okay, it's TWO replies out of many, but it shows it is there. Keep it that way, I prefer it.
The main theme of Christianity is to save, not to destroy. Anyone that rejects the message is only destroying themselves by the choice they make. God is not out to destroy, but to save. Unfortunantly, the vast majority of man chooses otherwise. They make the decision and if the decision is to have nothing to do with God and to be eternally seperated from God, then their choice will be respected and granted. If man doesn't want to be saved, then there's nothing God and I can do about it.
Well, when Jesus was asked what was most important, he said love. So I disagree. If Jesus had thought 'to save' was most important, he would have said it. But his message was about how one acts towards one's fellow man, as well as how one acts towards god.
This is where a 'save' based impetus actually detracts from Christ's message of love. He had meals with whores and people see as having low moral character. He ignored indeed detested pointless elaboration of Biblical commands (such as the 'no abortion' elaboration we're discussing on another thread, as you'll have to accept there's no Biblical rule reffering to deliberate abortion even though it was probably far more common than having sex with animals (which is mentioned)).
If one accept his message was about saving people, as well as about love, one has to acknowledge that living one's own life rightly in love seems to be the first responsibiltiy of any follower of Christ.
This difference is why I haven't mentioned destroying and you have. You put saving ahead of love for your fellow man.
If one, for the sake of argument, except there is a god, then one has firstly either to accept that god can allow unfairness (i.e. through circumstance of birth alone, and not through personal fault, some people are more likely to accept god), or that god is fair (i.e. if someone leads a generally good life and never hears the words attributed to Jesus they will be treated the same as someone who did hear Jesus' words and respond to them).
Now, if god IS fair, fine. But then, the message of saving becomes devalued. If god is fair, and people are not punished for not finding out about the specific Christian message through accident of birth, then what use is the message of being saved? All good people are. Yippiee!
So, I think this 'saved' business is a bit of a joke really. It's a way of controlling people with fear. Be good or die horribly/burn in hell/listen to Linda Ronstadt.
Which means that my interpretation, that Jesus' primary concern was that we love our fellow man, makes sense.
Now, if god is unfair, well, he can disappear up his nonexistant fundament with a resounding pop for all I care. If we are told to reject the devil because the devil is bad and god is unfair and unfair is bad then god is bad and we should reject him.
I'm sorry that the Borg warped your sense of the truth and understanding. I can only do my best to help you understand who and what God is, but there's so much in words that's hard to describe God's love and His plan for the world.
But that's what every religionist/con-man saysI When the Boreans were told of the message, did they just waft around absorbing the indescribable nature of god's love and his plan for the world. No, they did not. They researched the scriptures. You know, words. So you trying to assert there is more than words can convcey is suspect and exactly what you'd say if you were the victim of a fruad yo believe so strongly it wharps your perceptions.
As far as my sense of truth and understanding goes, be specific, don't use vauge bland statements to attack my character unless you can back them up.
I am also equally sorry that since after the Borg, you can no longer trust any religion since you got suckered by one once. Which makes it VERY understandable about distrusting God and His Son Jesus.
Yay! Love!
The Borg was never a Christian religion, never was one and never will be.
Yes, but they'd disagree with you and would say that you weren't a true Christian, and until you can show that some of the beliefs you have (anti-abortion for example) ARE Biblical, then you and they both look like just another bunch of Phrasees making stuff up.
They abused the Bible for their own profitable gain.
I hate that too.
They also abused the bible to destroy your sense of identity, families, friends, etc. That made you very angry and your anger turned into bitterness and distrust. I don't think you are alone.
Again, love. Can you see how when you act this way, even if you don't convince me, you are at least a good example?
The way I see it, Satan has done a superb job at putting you where he wants you to be. First, getting you suckered by a false religion, then later after finding out how false the Borg truly is, you left it and you became bitter and angry. Now you distrust anything religion, which suits Satan just fine. Since he's not gonna worry about you getting saved.
Small problem of me thinking if this god stuff was just a way of explaining ligtning that got WAY out of hand, then the devil is too...
The main theme for Satan is that he wants to make sure that no one gets saved, because he knows his time is short and since he knows that, he's gonna make sure he can take as many people with him when he goes down. He's that crazy.
Yes, but that's your view as you're some species of millenialist whose belief is predicated by a sincere engagement in the idea the end is coming soon. As there have been people who've belived the same thing, using the same scriptures as you for over a thousand years, I'm not geting too excited.
Also, Satan is not 'that crazy'. If he has the run of the Earth and is the enbodiment of evil he's very slack. Man, all you have to do is look at an average horror movie to figure out that he's simply not putting enough effort into evil.Yes, I am joking but I also have a point.
This is why there are so many false religion around the world,
I think there's one more than you do.
the number one theme of ALL false religion is that they never tell you that Jesus is the only way to salvation. They tell you that there are "other" ways to earn your salvation, one is just simply "being good". Which of course, that's not enough, the bible says "none is good and all have fallen short of the glory of God".
AH, problem is here you are wrong. There are those who will teach that the only way to salvation is through Christ, but will also find something about your beliefs to make them say you won't get salvation.
I think you've read enough from us "fundies" to know well enough to know what we believe, yet all the while, blind to the obviousness of the truth. Honestly, I really don't know how or what to say to convince you otherwise, as I can see it, I can't. I can only pray, which is as far as I can go.
And I will sacrifice a chicken for you... sorry, being prayed over, however sincere the person doing the prayer, is a mite irrelevent to me, and a bit of an irritant.
You basically say what my parent say, but differently, except both you and they think they are right but niether of you are capable of proving it...
... which leads us back to god and fairness.
If you really, really can't PROVE it, how can you fairly punish someone for reasonably not believing it?
Observe, the reasonable nature of your post deserves and gets reasonable treatment.
Now, my questions;
- Do you read the "Left Behind Books"?
- If no, do you approve of using the destruction of mankind as light entertainment for those who think they'll be saved?
... as those books are the topic of this thread.