Proof Please!

Francois

The other day someone made a reference to "mountainous" proof of the existence of an historical Jesus.

Refusing to suffer fools gladly, the poster was challenged to produce this "mountain" and I haven't heard a peep of it - not that I'm surprised.

A bb friend with whom I carry on a regular private correspondence reminded me of this challenge, and I was wondering if the "mountain" or even a hillock is ever going to be forthcoming? Come on Rex, where is it?

This also got me to thinking about whether or not there is ANY PROOF of any of the things that Christians are always saying they take on faith.

Like the mountain of evidence that a person like Jesus was even on this planet at all. Where is it? The closest I've ever been able to come to finding someone with a character like Christ was supposed to have had was Mohandas Gandhi. And I don't mean from the movie, either. "Gandhi the Man" by Eknath Eswaran is a good place to start tracking that down.

Josephus makes mention of an historical figure and calls him Jesus, but that's a close as I have been able to come in a cursory search.

Now, if any of you are interested in providing such evidence, I'd be very interested in having it. Understand that I don't mean that I'm looking for someone to quote scripture. I can read that for myself. I'm looking for the kind of stuff Rex claimed to have. You know, MOUNTAINOUS evidence proving that the person represented in the scriptures known as Jesus really did exist.

Maybe it's from the Bethlehem Bee: "Joseph Carpenter, cabinet builder and boatwright who lives on the corner of Sheckel Ave and Oy Vay Lane, was arrested this afternoon for attempting to get Herod "That Fox" Antipas to pay for work performed on the summer palace.

"Carpenter, who was accompanied by his son Jesus Carpenter, apprentice shipwright and Messiah, said that he had fallen from a scaffold while working on the palace for Antipas and, in his words, "damn near broke my ass" in the fall. It was unclear if the defendant mean his own behind, or that of his beast of burden."

"Jesus, who sat at the defense table and smiled everytime houseflies entered the mouth of the prosecuting attorney, took the stand briefly to state that his father Joseph did indeed work on the summer palace and that to his knowledge Herod had never paid a denarius to his father.

Something like that. Or maybe a passenger list of a cruise ship heading to Rome for the summer Jesus graduated high school. You know, all the kids in Jesus' class went to Rome for the graduation party and all their names are on a list somewhere, including Jesus.

Or maybe tax records the Romans kept in Palestine. We know they registered, or at least we're told they did.

See what I'm after here? Some sort of independant confirmation. Not quotes from the book for which the contents require outside proof. That's circular and won't do.

And Rex, this is your perfect chance to present that "mountain" of proof you've got for me that Jesus was an actual historical person. You don't have to give me a mountain. Just a hill will do. Even a hillock; maybe even a mound - or perhaps just a bump.

Any takers?

Franc

Where it is a duty to worship the Sun you can be sure that a study of the laws of heat is a crime.

Fredhall

Francoise,

He made you. Is that enough proof for you?

expatbrit

Fredhall: the ultimate refutation of natural selection.

Fredhall

Expatbrit,

You should be thankful that he made monkies too.

Francois

Bringing this to the top. It seems that my friend was pretty exercised about this question and I don't want to let him down. So I must troll for answers. Sorry.

Where it is a duty to worship the Sun you can be sure that a study of the laws of heat is a crime.

Farkel

Francoise,

Perhaps the wrong question is being asked. Whether Jesus of Nazareth lived or not around 2,000 years ago in the time and place it is said he lived is not really important. What is really important is whether he said and DID what the Bible says he said and did.

Looking at John Chapter 11 we see a story that if anyone in the entire mortal universe had witnessed it or knew to be true would have been recorded thousands and thousands of times in private diaries and in Roman chronicles. Alas, NO ONE bothered to record it but the author of the book of John. Why is it so astounding? Well, this guy named Lazarus had died and Jesus raised this guy from the dead. Not only was that a big deal, that was a HUGE deal. Why? Because that guy had been dead for FOUR days, that's why! Can't any Christian figure out what happens after a body has been dead for four days in the climate where Jesus lived? It rots, that's what. Bugs start eating it. It stinks to high heaven. Now, if the Jews practiced any sort of embalming, they would have already removed all blood and most organs from the body. If they used Egyptian embalming techniques, they would have inserted a hook through the nose of the corpse and pulled out the brain, too. But even if they had not embalmed the body, the body would have reeked of decomposition.

Jesus called out and Lazarus came to life. Since the Jewish leaders who must have had contact with the Romans who ruled the area already were highly pissed off at Jesus for calling them all the names that he did, it would not be the least bit unreasonable to assume that they were tailing him, using plants, spies, or whatever. Moreover, the Romans who were always suspicious of the Nationalistic aims of the Jews would have done the same. There must have been some witnesses from the enemies of Jesus at this event: the most spectacular miracle of all times. Jesus raised to life a body that was already rotting and stinking. Even if there were NONE of Jesus's enemies and even if ALL of the witnesses to this spectacle were totally illiterate, doesn't it make sense that at least a FEW of them would have found a scribe or at least SOMEONE to tell this story to all get them to write down another eyewitness account? NO! Only the writer of John mentions it. Why didn't the authors of the three synoptic Gospels write about it? Was it not a big deal to them? Were miracles THAT common in their day? If so, then where's any evidence they were that common?

Picture this:

Samuel the mason comes home from a day's work and says to his wife Rebecca: "Hi, honey! How was your day?"

Rebecca: "You will not BELIEVE what I saw today! You know that carpenter from Nazareth I've told you about, the man who is called the Messiah? I saw him raise a moldy, rotting, stinky, gawd-awful CORPSE back to life today. After the guy was brought to life, the smell went away from his body and everything! Isn't that amazing! He MUST be from God."

Samuel: "Yeah? That's nice. So, what's for dinner? I'm hungry."

Rebecca: "I'm not kidding, honey. Two dozen of our friends were there and saw the same thing. You can ask them if you want."

Samuel: "I asked, "What's for dinner?"

Rebecca: "My friends and myself have seen this guy actually walk on top of water."

Samuel: "I'd really like to see that, but I've got a whole bunch of bricks to lay tomorrow. Perhaps we can see him do that on Saturday, when I'm off."

Rebecca: "I saw him feed THOUSANDS of people with just a few loaves of bread and a few fish."

Samuel: "Well, that's mighty nice of him. Did you bring any of the leftovers home for us? Life is tough these days."

Seriously folks: Do you think that ALL of the folks who learned and saw the "miracles" of Jesus back then were dim-bulbs like my "Samuel?"

So, Francoise, the more important question is not whether Jesus actually existed, but rather did he do what the Bible said he did, and if he did raise Lazarus from the dead, why did ONLY the writer of JOHN give a shit enough about it to write about it?

Farkel

Francois

Right enough, Fark. However your dynamic isn't what Rex alleged. He alleged that there were mountains of information about Jesus being resurrected. (Might point out that Jesus would have been pretty ripe after three days in that neck of the woods, too.)

However, we're on safe ground here. Whether the question is that Jesus lived at all, whether he did what he was supposed to have done, whether there is proof that he was resurrected. Frankly, I'll take evidence of any or all. Matters not.

However, since Rex was making loud about his mountain, I'll go for that. Don't want to give him any wiggle room you know. So proof of this resurrection it is.

Let's have it Rex. Wherethehellisallthismountainousproof??? The kind you could use in a court of law? Where? It's not a quote in some fuckin' book.

LET'S HAVE IT, WIMP.

Francois

Where it is a duty to worship the Sun you can be sure that a study of the laws of heat is a crime.

patio34

It reminds me of playing Scrabble with someone who comes up with unreal words--you have the right to challenge the word. If it's not a real word (no proof), he loses points. There's a penalty for bogus words--and statements.

Rex: 0, Francoise et al: 10

Pat

patio34

Oh, oh! Another thing: I have done quite a bit of geneaology research. It's amazing the information you can dig up from 200 years ago about basically insignificant farmers (in my lineage at least!). Now, if this Jesus actually did all that's purported, why is there such a deafening silence from his contemporaries--writers, historians, etc.?

Of course, to many reasoning persons, the answer is obvious.

Pat

Seeker

WW (Rex) probably thinks that Paul reporting that upward of 500 persons saw the resurrected Jesus counts as 'mountains of evidence.' I mean, 500 accounts of the event! Oh wait, what's that? Not one of those 500 said one word about it? We don't have even one account written about this life-changing event? We only have Paul's word on the matter? Mere hearsay?

Funny how quickly a mountain can become a molehill under a magnifying glass.

Proof Please!

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