Yeru:
I don't deny that Jesus ever lived. I don't know. I think that there probably was someone or some people named Jesus. But who this person(s) was/were historically is a big question with little empirical evidence. That's what this thread is about. Some have made the claim that there is a lot of evidence for a real and historical Jesus. So far, I haven't seen such evidence. Did you read the link I provided? Here is a quote and a partial list of those who were silent:
The following is a list of writers who lived and wrote during the time, or within a century after the time, that Christ is said to have lived and performed his wonderful works:
Josephus
Philo-Judaeus
Seneca
Pliny the Elder
Suetonius
Juvenal
Martial
Persius
Plutarch
Justus of Tiberius
Apollonius
Pliny the Younger
Tacitus
Quintilian
Lucanus
Epictetus
Silius Italicus
Statius
Ptolemy
Hermogones
Valerius Maximus Arrian
Petronius
Dion Pruseus
Paterculus
Appian
Theon of Smyrna
Phlegon
Pompon Mela
Quintius Curtius
Lucian
Pausanias
Valerius Flaccus
Florus Lucius
Favorinus
Phaedrus
Damis
Aulus Gellius
Columella
Dio Chrysostom
Lysias
Appion of AlexandriaEnough of the writings of the authors named in the foregoing list remains to form a library. Yet in this mass of Jewish and Pagan literature, aside from two forged passages in the works of a Jewish author, and two disputed passages in the works of Roman writers, there is to be found no mention of Jesus Christ.
Was Jesus of the bible a carpenter from Nazareth who began a ministry and changed the world? Was he a Gnostic Jew who preached some radical ideas? Is he a mythological person, the Christ, performer of miracles, healer of the sick, raiser of the dead, and so on, created by zealous followers, or is Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ a composite of some or all of these elements? These are interesting and compelling questions. No one questioned these things much until fairly recently when Christianity had lost some of the stronghold it had on society. Recent discoveries have shed much new light on many issues relating to the Bible, most of which you won't learn in your local place of worship.
But even with all these discoveries, the evidence for the/a historical Jesus are scant. This could be for many reasons. Christianity in its infancy was a new movement and a threat to the status quo. Those in power would and did do much to suppress such a new movement, including destroying evidence, much like later Christians did to those who criticised their movement after they were the ones with the power and the control.
I am not saying that you can't have faith in Jesus. But when people make claims for a historical person and can't provide any proof after having been called to task, they should admit they don't have any, that there isn't any, or that they are unfamiliar with the evidence and should not have made the claim. Apart from an appeal for evidence of a historical Jesus, this thread is about intellectual honesty, and being able to back up what one claims. There are many honest Christians who say: "You know what, I don't dont have any empirical evidence nor do I know of such evidence for a historical Jesus, but in my heart of hearts, with all the faith I can muster, I believe in him and accept him as my lord and saviour. This may not make sense in any logical way, but it gives deep meaning to my life and provides inspiration, and I feel makes me a better person and the world a better place."
On the other hand, there are those who make claims for which there is little or no evidence. They cannot back up these claims other than with circular arguments. (One may not be able to discount out of hand Biblical accounts of Jesus, but for a Christian to use these as proof of a historical Jesus is an error of logic called circular reasoning.)
I wouldn't deny anyone their faith, but once again, someone making claims needs to be able to back those claims up or they shouldn't make them. To do otherwise is dishonest.
CPiolo
P.S. It's interesting that your signature is a quote by Plato, a pagan who did not worship the Judeo/Christian/Muslim god, Jehovah/Yahweh/Allah.
The worst vice of the fanatic is his sincerity. -- Oscar Wilde
