Who ARE the 144,00??

by TallTexan 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  LittleToe

  It's not been mentioned here, yet, so I'll also throw this into the pot:

  In Rev.7:4 he hears the symbolic number.
  In Rev.7:9 he sees them as a great multitude
  In Rev.7:14, 15 he finds out that this multitude are priests in the temple, with the one on the throne dwelling among them (which is either the lamb or God or both).

  The WTS doctrine is screwed, when you read the whole chapter, because they believe that only the 144k are priests. That could only be the case if they are also the Great Crowd.
  Alternatively they are Israelites, and the Great Crowd are the Priests, who dwell with the lamb (and I don't think they would like to put it that way, either, since they want to be kings and priests).

  The Christian view is that the number represents all Born-Again believers (simply, Christians). They are apportioned places in the promised land (being heavenly places).
• 

  peacefulpete

  Nice observation LT.
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  LittleToe

  I meant to mention it in my own post, Pete, but I enjoyed the Kabbalistic insight as well.
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  Robdar

  IMO, the 144,000 are the saints--true saints. They are the ones who have (symbolically speaking) eaten of the fruits of the spirit and meditated upon God in order to bring his kingdom into physical being. I do not know that 144,000 is the exact number but interpret the Bible to mean that these people will be few and far between.

  Robyn
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  LittleToe

  Maybe Pete'll throw some extra light on this one, but the way I understood the number itself is like this:

  Twelve tribes are represented.
  The number for each tribe is 12,000.

  12 is a number denoting completeness.
  1000 is a number denoting largeness, even indefinite (like 1000 years).
  Hence a perfect and complete indefinitely large number, for each tribe.

  Onto idiosyncracies amongst the tribes:
  Joseph is normally represented by his two sons, as a double portion of inheritance.
  However in this text we see that it is Joseph and Manasseh, not Ephraim and Manasseh, who are represented. Since Jacob blessed Ephraim as the firstborn, maybe he get's to take Joseph's name (Gen.48).

  Levi get's an apportionment, in this text, but Dan loses out as a lost tribe.
  Hence the number remains at 12 tribes.
  I wonder if this is in some way linked to Gen.49, where Dan is called a snake.

  To throw in a piece of complete speculation, maybe each "Christian" is alloted a tribe, complete with role. Different gifts for different parts of the body?
• 

  ballistic

  I enjoyed the Kabbalistic insight as well.

  *** stirs from dazing on hearing name ***
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  kes152

  Greetings, The 144,000 are direct descendants of the sons of Abraham, through Isaac, and through Jacob (Israel). They are not Jews because the Jews only made up two of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel (Benjamin and Joseph). The other ten tribes were called Samaritans (dwelling in the land of Samaria). The 144,000 are the firstfruits of the entire nation of Israel. The 144,000 are ones who have been sealed in their foreheads as slaves of the Most High from every tribe of the sons of Israel. They have been sealed with holy spirit and belong to the Christ as 'his' which fulfills God's covenant with his friend, Abraham. After these things, our brother bears witness saying that he sees a great multitude (also in heaven) from every nation, and tribe, and people, and tongue, wearing white robes with palm branches in their hands. These are the nations who JOIN Israel as "fellow heirs" of the kingdom of the heavens and also partake of the holy priesthood and reign with the Christ for a thousand years. All of these have been dressed in white robes that the authority to the tree of life and entrance into the [heavenly] city may be theirs. The 144,000 and the great crowd all share the heavenly inheritance to become sons of the God and begotten by holy spirit by means of the Christ to become 'his' and make up "the TRUE seed of Abraham." Peace be with you, Aaron
• 

  heathen

  I think the WTBTS had the virgin part right , they believe that the apostle John was using one of his usual metaphors of remaining as virgins in a spiritual state as we see the word harlot was often used to describe ancient Israels spiritual state when they fell into apostasy . The 144k I think is literal because it simply makes no sense to mention a numbered group and then mention a group without number . The 144k it appears are slautered but the other group in fact comes off victorious against the beast and are granted the reward of eternal life which revelations later states will live in paradise earth and eat from the trees of life that grow by the river that flows from new jerusalem .

  I also have a problem with the WTBTS accepting women as members of the very elite 144k because I don't see anywhere in the apostle pauls writings that lead me to that conclusion, women he states would be saved through , faith, childbearing and sanctification provided they have soundness of mind .
• 

  Robdar

  pauls writings that lead me to that conclusion, women he states would be saved through , faith, childbearing and sanctification provided they have soundness of mind .

  Sounds like fundamental Islam to me. Makes me wonder when "Paul's" writing actually occurred?

  Robyn
• 

  heathen

  Robdar ---- The apostle paul does come off sounding like a chauvanist , I can agree with that but there does seem to be something motivating him besides self interest . There are many examples that portray him as being fair and honest about the arrangement . I think one of the main things that women should consider is that they do not have the same obligations as men in his writings . They don't have to preach the gospel or do public works like the dubs think in order to be christian . IMO they pretty much get a free pass .