by TallTexan 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
On this I seem to remember being told as a child at the memorial that some who partake are not part of the anointed and they would be dealt with harshly by Jah. It's been so long and my memory fails me but I do believe there is scripture to back this up but can't say for sure.
Their is no scripture, but that is what they teach, or I should say imply.
A thought just occured to me, wonder if anyone else has wondered about this or knows?????
Does the Watchtower Society keep names, addresses, ages, and information on those of the remanant who are still alive? I don't remember anyone saying that the remanant are kept track of, do any of you know?
As important as this group is suppose to be to them it looks like they would know who are are and where they are. Does anyone know all the names of those of the Governing Body these days, or those of the faithful and discreet slave in charge? Funny if you as a JW they don't know, don't seem important to them. I used to wonder when I was a JW and used to ask. Most didn't know or care. It is such a corner stone believe in these beings kings and priests, looks like they would keep track of them.
Balsam
Who ARE the 144,000??
The polyphonic spree???....no...wait...did they marry Liz Taylor?
The Jews had a problem when it came to numbers and math and figuring. For one thing, they had no numbers!My point? The use of numbers in the Bible has a whole other use that was meaningful to Hebrews. Numbers became supernatural symbols. They became detached from a literal everyday use.
Keep that in mind when you start pondering the meaning of some quantity in Scripture.
Terry
True, but Revelation was written in Greek, presumably to a large Gentile population as well.
Does the Watchtower Society keep names, addresses, ages, and information on those of the remanant who are still alive? I don't remember anyone saying that the remanant are kept track of, do any of you know?
From the times I was 'privileged' enough to pass the emblems, I simply remember being told to keep a count of any who partook and let the bro's know at the end of the service. I think those are tallied and that's how they keep track of how many of the 'annointed' are still alive. As far as I know, they are not 'tracked'. As Ray Franz points out in 'CHristian Freedom', it's not like they're ever consulted about anything anyway. Glad to know they're the FDS helping out the 'good ol boys' in Brooklyn....
Governing Body these days, or those of the faithful and discreet slave in charge?
There is no more governing body anymore. They retired then changed the definition to any anoited at the head quarters. They are mascots. The great crowd are now in charge.
TallTexan,
If you understand the 144,000 to be literal than they would have to be Jewish males. I do not believe that you have to know if they are Jewish men that have come to Christ or the entire body of Christ to be saved. When they are established, I do not believe that there will be any mistaken who they are.
You said, ?
I guess it only makes sense if one still believes that the Jews are somehow special to God.
?
Let take a look at explaining how one would believe that God still holds something special for the Jews. I am not asking you to believe this, just to see that there is something in the Bible that could lead someone into believing that God is not finished with the Jews. For this discussion I will also take the stand the 144,000 is literally Jewish men. Bible quotes are from the New International Version.
Romans 11:25-26, 25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: Since these verses deal with the Gentiles as a natural group, Israel here can only be taken as a natural group. This can not be seen as spiritual
Daniel 9:20-27: 20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill- 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, "Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the message and understand the vision:
24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.
25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. ? Daniel in verse 20 is praying for and the following is his answer delivered by Gabriel. Verse 24 there are seventy ?sevens? for which God is going to deal with the Jews. To put an end to their sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. I think we can all agree that these things have not occurred with the Jews, nor any other group for that matter.
I do not want to set dates here that is not the purpose. But note in verse 25 that there are only 69 sevens talked about, which leaves one seven to be fulfilled. Although we see much evil in this world we have not seen the temple desecrated with an abomination that causes desolation, nor have we seen the end. We see a pause in the fulfillment of the seventy sevens. In verse 27 we see the last seven, which is relates to the Great Tribulation. Currently we live in that pause.
So moving forward to Revelation specifically Chapter 7, 9, and 14.
Revelation 7:1-4 1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of
.In verse 1-4 we see the angels holding back the winds from the four corners of the earth the seal of the 144,000 has been completed. So instead of in heaven we find these 144,000 still occupying the earth.
Revelation 9:1-6 1 The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. 2 When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. 4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.Note in 4 that the people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads were to be harmed. These people are on the earth, if they were the only ones there would be no need to make a distinction. However there is and the only distinction made concerning humans is the seal on the forehead. This would lead one to understand that the sealed (144,000) are on earth as well.
Revelation 14:1-5 1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on
, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2 And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.When in is mentioned in the Bible, except on place in the New Testament, it is referring to an earthly . So if God is dealing one last time with the Jews, it would stand to reason that the Jews would see this as an earthly place. But whether earthly or heavenly it show not only the 144,000 with Christ but there are others (the rest of Christ?s body) there.
If the tribulation is the time that God is dealing mainly with the Jews. Who would be the best candidate to glorify Him to the nation of ? The gentile or 144,000 pure (righteous) Jews. That does not mean that the gentile is not able to come to God during this time, it is a seven year period that Jews are the Lord?s target market.
As I said that I am not trying to convince you of this; there is a lot of things not mentioned. Like where are the believers, where is the Holy Spirit. But hopefully you can see that this is one way one can see God is not finished with the natural Jew.
I believe that Triple A is correct in his thinking................I stand in agreement. God is not finished with the Jews, or the chosen ones, whether Jews or not. They are from the offspring of Abraham. I feel that the tribes of Israel and Judah are the two witnesses spoken of in Revelations, chapter 11. I further believe that they are going through the prophecies in revelation right now, and will soon be restored............then Jehovah will turn His attention to the nations. I do think that the number is literal, as the 42 months, and 1260 days are literal........only time will tell.
Brownboy
Good point LT . Apparently they never felt the need to include these prophesies in the writings that went from congregation to congregation . The term prophesy must have meant in that sense of reading old testament scripture and interpreting the meanings . It does seem that the new testament writers did change some rules during the period of time between pentacost and the last of pauls writings . Later in Pauls writings women were no longer considered of the anointed because he writes that they should learn in silence and to consult their husbands on spiritual issues .
I have concluded that it is possible for women to be anointed in the 1st century but in todays christian arrangement the 144k are all men .The ethnic jews are not a select group anymore , the gentiles were grafted in the olive branch .
My argument about women is that they don't have to do anything as the WTBTS believes they do in order to be christian . They can volunteer to help teach new converts but their salvation was never reliant on public works .
Heathen:
There are neither male nor female...
He is the same yesterday, today and forever...
I think the speaking in church was because they wouldn't shut up at the start of the service, and kept interjecting arguments and questions throughout, instead of letting the poor guy at the fromt get through his discourse. OTOH the guys were far more genteel
