Into the mystic (an experience).

by El blanko 207 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • rem
    rem

    LT,

    Hey, skeptics have feelings too! You know how it feels being the minority living in a superstitious world? You think you get scoffs? Just read the first few post on this thread... that's what I was responding to in the first place.

    rem

  • myelaine
    myelaine

    rem,

    All I'm providing is probabilities and alternatives or saying "I don't know". Is that so closed minded?

    I don't like to make judgement calls, but I would have to say you are not close-minded, more like narrow-minded.

    michelle

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Rem:
    You mean comments like this one:

    LT Wrote: I don't usually air such experiences in public fora, especially this one, where they usually get trampled on by the hyper-skeptics. I'm open to discuss such things, though, and often do in face-to-face situations.

    Seems like I was right, to be honest with ya
    I can't believe you laid into Bradley - LOL.
    He was your last best chance at support.

    Ach, just funning with ya, pal.
    A skeptical eye never harms. It's just the constant naysaying that's like a burr in my butt

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Funny how this thread slipped from an interchange of stories into a debate of concurrent explanations -- or, if I revert to Lacan's paradigm, from the symbolical to the imaginary; in other words, we are desperately trying to locate our experience as we tell it or others' experience as they tell it on our respective mental maps (and those maps obviously don't agree).

    To me, the "true stories" people tell are always worth listening. They are never "real facts", because real facts are wordless; they can be complete fictions, and nonetheless be "true" in a sense (the so-called "liar" may tell more truth about himself than the so-called "honest"). The problem with the obsessional neurotics of the imaginary (either dogmatic believers or skeptics) is that they won't allow themselves to live or to tell anything which they have not previously located and secured on their map. How flat and sad would they world be without those hysterical heretics or cranks they try so hard to censor!

    The clouds of dreams, or poetry, usually do not appear on maps.

  • El blanko
    El blanko

    I know where you are coming from myelaine and thanks for your comments earlier

    REM - I think the world is becoming far more skeptical IMO and in my experience at least; most people love their dosh and toys above and beyond everything else.

    Where I live in the UK it's all sports, booze, chips & curry, work, cars and sex - if you are an authority on any item within that list or preferably, all of them, you become a great drinking partner to the herd

    (of course there are exceptions)

    So, I think you are a herald for the masses.

    I think you are ok though and enjoy your contributions to this thread - you are my cosmic resistance or the grinding wheel that sharpens my steel.

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    rem, I believe a bit of an explanation is in order (not that you have in any way questioned my motives).

    I'm not attempting to imply that rationality and the scientific "method" lacks validity; I love science, particularly math and physics, and I'd be a bigger fool than I already am if I suggested that these 'tools' by which we explore the universe are a waste of time and energy.

    Nor am I simply playing devil's advocate.

    And, I've never had what might be described as a mystical experience, so I can hardly pretend to be a defender of mysticism.

    My main point is that there are inherent limits to every form of human investigation; either because of the limited experimental apparatus we have, or because of the parameters (delineated by the particular science we pursue, or by general convention) within which the results of an experiment are interpreted, or because of our own limited ability to objectively interpret the evidence of any experiment. Indeed, quantum mechanics says just that very thing about physical phenomena, and could conceivably be extrapolated to suggest that all phenomena that are incorporated within a physical universe are equally unknowable, at least in the absolute sense of "know."

    As an aside: one reason I find myself compelled to explore this whole issue is that, as the pendulum swings, I've come from the extreme end of the scale of absolute determinism, as embodied in the core belief-system of a fundamental religion, and refuse to blindly substitute one form of determinism for another (indeed, in so deciding, I am being far from objective! LOL)

    This is a very interesting thread! I hope it goes on for several hundred more posts.

    Respects to all,

    Craig

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Here's a LC&P that referes to a study of the effects of TM on the crime rate in Washington DC June and July 1993 I think this may have some barring on the subject of paranormal being discussed does anybody have any similar studies or counter arguments?:

    http://www.istpp.org/crime_prevention/

    Effects of Group Practice of the Transcendental Meditation Program on Preventing Violent Crime in Washington, DC: Results of the National Demonstration Project, June-July 1993

    John S. Hagelin, Maxwell V. Rainforth, David W. Orme-Johnson, Kenneth L. Cavanaugh, Charles N. Alexander, Susan F. Shatkin, John L. Davies, Anne O. Hughes, and Emanuel Ross

    This study presents the final results of a two-month prospective experiment to reduce violent crime in Washington, DC. On the basis of previous research it was hypothesized that the level of violent crime in the District of Columbia would drop significantly with the creation of a large group of participants in the Transcendental Meditation ® and TM-Sidhi ® programs to increase coherence and reduce stress in the District.

    This National Demonstration Project to Reduce Violent Crime and Improve Governmental Effectiveness brought approximately 4,000 participants in the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi programs to the United States national capital from June 7 to July 30, 1993. A 27-member independent Project Review Board consisting of sociologists and criminologists from leading universities, representatives from the police department and government of the District of Columbia, and civic leaders approved in advance the research protocol for the project and monitored its progress.

    The dependent variable in the research was weekly violent crime, as measured by the Uniform Crime Report program of the Federal Bureau of Investigation; violent crimes include homicide, rape, aggravated assault, and robbery. This data was obtained from the District of Columbia Metropolitan Police Department for 1993 as well as for the preceding five years (1988-1992). Additional data used for control purposes included weather variables (temperature, precipitation, humidity), daylight hours, changes in police and community anti-crime activities, prior crime trends in the District of Columbia, and concurrent crime trends in neighboring cities. Average weekly temperature was significantly correlated with homicides, rapes and assaults (HRA crimes), as has also been found in previous research; therefore temperature was used as a control variable in the main analysis of HRA crimes. Using time series analysis, violent crimes were analyzed separately in terms of HRA crimes (crimes against the person) and robbery (monetary crimes), as well as together.

    Analysis of 1993 data, controlling for temperature, revealed that there was a highly significant decrease in HRA crimes associated with increases in the size of the group during the Demonstration Project. The maximum decrease was 23.3% when the size of the group was largest during the final week of the project. The statistical probability that this result could reflect chance variation in crime levels was less than 2 in 1 billion (p < .000000002). When a longer baseline is used (1988-1993 data), the maximum decrease was 24.6% during this period (p < .00003). When analyzed as a separate variable, robberies did not decrease significantly, but a joint analysis of both HRA crimes and robberies indicated that violent crimes as a whole decreased significantly to a maximum amount of 15.6% during the final week of the project (p = .0008). Analysis of 1993 data, controlling for temperature, revealed that there was a highly significant decrease in HRA crimes associated with increases in the size of the group during the Demonstration Project.

    Several additional analyses were performed on HRA crimes to further assess the strength of the main findings. These indicated that the reduction of HRA crimes associated with the group of participants in the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi programs could not be attributed to changes in police staffing. These secondary analyses also found that the reduction of HRA crimes was highly robust to alternative specifications of the statistical model-that is, the effect is independent of the isolated details of the models used to assess seasonal cycles and trends. No significant decrease was found in any of the prior five years during this period of time, indicating that this effect was not due to the specific time of year. Furthermore, the intervention parameters for the group size revealed that the effect of the group was not only cumulative with the increase in group size, but also continued for some time after the end of the project.

    Based on the results of the study, the steady state gain (long-term effect) associated with a permanent group of 4,000 participants in the Transcendental Meditation and TM-Sidhi programs was calculated as a 48% reduction in HRA crimes in the District of Columbia.

    Given the strength of these results, their consistency with the positive results of previous research, the grave human and financial costs of violent crime, and the lack of other effective and scientific methods to reduce crime, policy makers are urged to apply this approach on a large scale for the benefit of society.

    Reference: Hagelin, J.S., Rainforth, M.V., Orme-Johnson, D.W., Cavanaugh, K. L., Alexander, C.N., Shatkin, S.F., Davies, J.L, Hughes, A.O, and Ross, E. 1999. Effects of group practice of the Transcendental Meditation program on preventing violent crime in Washington D.C.: Results of the National Demonstration Project, June-July, 1993. Social Indicators Research, 47(2): 153-201.

  • El blanko
    El blanko
    The clouds of dreams, or poetry, usually do not appear on maps.

    ... and magic is rarely the bed fellow of the materialist.

  • Frannie Banannie
    Frannie Banannie
  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Frannie:
    Like good standup, it's all in the timing

    Rem:
    A question for ya.
    Do you think we're wasting our time?
    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/77232/1.ashx

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