by ruffian 56 Replies latest jw friends
Ruffian,
Most of the time when a hebrew word has 4 letters, it would likely have more than two syllables. Plus, the NWT translation was not the first translation have God's name in the NT. Moreover, E. Hutter put God's pretty name in the NT 260 times in his translation. If you want more information, then read Divine Name Conterversy vol. 1 by Firpo Carr
And another thing:
Consider, as has been the case in the East for millenia, that "The God you can name is not the eternal God."
This is because a name is nothing more than a label and a label not only defines what something is, it also defines what something is not. A label is a limit. Thus when you state that an object is a book, for instance, you can produce instantly an image of a book. And you know also instantly that the named object isn't a vase, or a tree, or whatever.
So when you say that God's name is Jehovah, it limits that god to a certain set of characteristics; a set of definitions of his nature, his makeup - essentially his being is defined.
The point here is that if you can define god, that's not him. God is infinite, eternal, and absolute. He cannot be captured in words. It is impossible to obtain an absolute verbal knowledge of god, the real one, because a name, a label, is a limit and a limited god is not God at all.
Thus, when the Hebrews used "YHWH" for their god, they could only be describing their local, tribal god; not the infinite God of the universes.
When Jeremiah said that god was a god not only of the nation of Isreal, but of all nations, the Hebrews resented it so much they threw him down a well and left him for dead.
The minor prophets also attempted to upstep the Hebrew's concept of God, calling him the god of the universe. But maintaining the use of the tribal name Jehovah.
And Jesus. Another attempt to expand the conscious awareness that God was not only the majestic and eternal creator of the universes, but also a loving heavenly father. There is NO record of Jesus having ever used the tribal name of god for his father.
I'm not the only one who maintains that Jehovah, nor Yahweh, nor YHWH, nor any of the other names for god based on the old tribal name is anything more than that - a tribal name.
And that God, the real one, has no name.
The god that you can name is not the eternal god.
Where it is a duty to worship the Sun you can be sure that a study of the laws of heat is a crime.
This is because a name is nothing more than a label and a label not only defines what something is, it also defines what something is not.
Exactly. The distinctive name of Jehovah immediately calls to mind that Jehovah is not a trinity. He is not Jesus. He is not Allah. He is not Khrisna. He is not Buddha, etc.
Thus when you state that an object is a book, for instance, you can produce instantly an image of a book. And you know also instantly that the named object isn't a vase, or a tree, or whatever.
Without a doubt, this is some of the goofiest "reasoning" that has ever emanated from a human mind. According to your reasoning, so-called, the generic names of God and Lord would also "instantly" produce a certain forbidden image of, dare I say---God. If your empty-headed reasoning ever became a reality we would not utter the words God or Lord either but merely motion with our finger heavenward when we wished to bring up the unspeakable. Even that though would "instantly" produce an image in the mind of those whom you wish to stupify with your nonsense.
So when you say that God's name is Jehovah, it limits that god to a certain set of characteristics; a set of definitions of his nature, his makeup - essentially his being is defined.
Exactly. The name Jehovah literally means "he that causes to become." Only the Eternal Creator can rightly bear that name. All the other would-be gods are frauds because none of them can cause anything to become, or impose their will upon all creation as can Jehovah.
The point here is that if you can define god, that's not him. God is infinite, eternal, and absolute. He cannot be captured in words.
How true the apostle's words about those who had become "empty-headed in their reasonings," and who do "not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge." God is quite knowable. Obviously you chose not to know him for your own transparently selfish reasons. You make god into your own twisted image and glorify ignorance.
It is impossible to obtain an absolute verbal knowledge of god, the real one, because a name, a label, is a limit and a limited god is not God at all.
That is just stupid and satanic. You are obviously bias against the name that God has given himself. God invented the human mind with the capacity to understand languages in order to transmit thoughts. While God's thoughts are obviously higher than man's thoughts, they are not unknowable. Humans were created with the desire and ability to think God's thoughts. Righteous people are drawn to him and he teaches them who he is. Obviously wicked individuals are repelled by him and wish to distort the truth about God.
Thus, when the Hebrews used "YHWH" for their god, they could only be describing their local, tribal god; not the infinite God of the universes.
What utter nonsense! Jehovah was no local or tribal god. The tribal gods that were common among the peoples were completely different from Jehovah. No god had ever claimed to be the sole diety and Creator of the universe. The revelation that Jehovah made of himself through the Hebrew prophets was the most startling and awesome truth ever given to mankind.
The minor prophets also attempted to upstep the Hebrew's concept of God, calling him the god of the universe. But maintaining the use of the tribal name Jehovah.
Jehovah revealed himself as the God of the universe from the very beginning. In fact, that's how the bok of Jehovah begins by saying: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." It don't get any more universal than that.
And Jesus. Another attempt to expand the conscious awareness that God was not only the majestic and eternal creator of the universes, but also a loving heavenly father. There is NO record of Jesus having ever used the tribal name of god for his father.
Jesus quoted Isaiah 61:1 the says that "The spirit of Jehovah is upon me, for the reason that Jehovah has anointed me..." Jesus would not have followed the Jewish superstition of not pronouncing his own Father's name. In fact the name Jesus, as a derivation of the Hebrew name Joshua, means literally---"Jehovah is salvation." Clearly, at this point, your ignorance is limit down. LOL
The god that you can name is not the eternal god.
That's true. Men didn't name God Jehovah. He named himself and revealed his name to mankind. / You Know
Im confused. It seemed to me that if the prophets DID write useing that name jehovah, that since they were divinly inspired, the name that they used would have been inspired by God as well.
A more accurate pronounciation in English is probably Yaweh.Definitely not true. We know beyond any shadow of a doubt that the YHWH was originally pronounced with 3 syllables, and that the middle syllable had a "O" vowel sound. We know this because of all the many Hebrew names that incorporated parts of the YHWH as suffixes or prefixes or otherwise. Names such as JeHOsapaht, JeHOram, JeHOram, JeHOachin, JeHOash, JeHOahaz, and others, reveal that the 1st two syllables were modified with the vowels "E" & "O." Yahweh is not even close.
Were all those other names written in hebrew with vowels E and O? I was under the impression that none of the hebrew writing contained vowels.. I the vowels are there for those other names then you have a good point.. If not then the reasoning is circular, there would be no way to know the pronounciation of any of the names..
"Without a doubt, this is some of the goofiest "reasoning" that has ever emanated from a human mind. "
I know Im new to the group and I dont want to start any fights but is it really necessary to make such statements when they are obviously hurtfull and just plain untrue? I thought I found a great group but this like going to a great party and there always being that one drunk guy that makes everyone uncomfortable. If you must disagree could you please do so politely?
"How true the apostle's words about those who had become "empty-headed in their reasonings," and who do "not approve of holding God in accurate knowledge." "
So the the apostles knew to call God Jehovah as well and that is what they wrote to pass on to us? I mean since they didnt suffer from "empty headedness" and held God in such accurate knowledge.
Ruffian, you asked about God's name in the bible. It is true that there are no vowels in ancient Hebrew, and the letters representing God's name are YHWH. The argument about which is the closer to the real pronunciation is just academic, because there is NO way for us to find out now.
It was not used in the Christian Greek Scriptures.
In the foreword to the Kingdom Interlinear Translation, it says, concerning God's name:
One of the remarkable facts, not only about the extant manuscripts of the original Greek text, but of many versions, ancient and modern, is the absence of the divine nameThere is quite a lot of reasoning about this for the next few pages. It then says
The evidence is, therefore, that the original text of the Christian Greek Scriptures has been tampered with…Later on it asks how a modern translator to can know or determine when to use the divine name, and answers with
By determining where the inspired Christian writers have quoted from the Hebrew Scriptures…Is that the information you wanted, Mustang?
I know Im new to the group and I dont want to start any fights but is it really necessary to make such statements when they are obviously hurtfull and just plain untrue?
Don't worry, you are not starting a fight as such. The fight is an ongoing one. As far as being polite, calling an idea goofy or even the goofiest is really a trivial thing, in my opinion. Read the book of Job in your Bible if you want to get in on a fight. For example, at Job 12:1, Job said that his apostate accusers were basically idiots. But he did say it politely, I suppose, when he said: "For a fact you men are the people, and with you wisdom will die out." It is easier and more to the point to simply say you are stupid, or an idiot, but I did try to soften the blow by using the somewhat less harsh term "goofy" to describe a type of reasoning.
So the the apostles knew to call God Jehovah as well and that is what they wrote to pass on to us?
It was not necessary for the apostles to reveal that God's name was Jehovah. That revelation was made centuries earlier by the many Hebrew prophets. Interestingly though, in the 19th chapter of Revelation the apostle used the term "hallalujah," which was frequently used in the Psalms, and means praise Jah. Jah was a shortened form of Jehovah. Also at Acts 15:17-19, the apostle Peter gave a speech where he quoted from the Hebrew prophet Amos. At Amos 9:12 it foretold that non-Jewish peoples would also call on the name of Jehovah. So, yes, definitely, the apostles also knew and used the distinctive name of God as did the Hebrews before them. / You Know
ruffian,
As a newcomeer, you picked up on the rough language that You Know uses. He is the only one who has reponded to you that is a Jehovah's Witness. Although I no longer believe what the Witnesses do, I have very fond memories of some sincere, kind, respectful people. In my many years as a Witness, I never knew any that used the kind of harsh, insulting language used by You Know. I think he is a very poor reflection on his religion.
TNX, Esther,
I certainly sounds like what was described to me. Thanks again.
I'm definitely looking for a copy of the purple boo & the older Emphatic Diaglott.
Mustang
