God and the Concept of Time

by ezekiel3 60 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Terry
    Terry

    Okay, my mission is to be brief. Otherwise, nobody is going to read any of this!

    1.Time is the distance between events. No events; no time. Time is like zero; it is a kind of abstraction that enables convenient placement of cause and effect.

    2.There is no FREE WILL. There is no free lunch either. Everything acts (if it acts at all) according to its nature. Our failure to understand what our nature impels results in the "illusion" of choice.

    3.God is man's abandonment of reason in order to achieve a bootstrap effect. Man desperately needs rescue from oblivion. But, unable to change his nature, he postulates an "outside" agency he is beholden to who will do it for him. The price of abandoning his own rational mind is to surrender his "will" to his imagination.

    4.The atomic structure of actually existing things is eternal. There is no "nothing" from which everything suddenly "becomes". The chaotic nature of nature itself is evidenced by the way things tend toward the erratic. The corollary to chaos is areas of seemingly "organized" matter. Example: a deck of cards contains the best and the worst hands of poker. It is in the dealing of the cards and the assigning of valuation the "game" appears.

    5.If man did not exist it logically follows that he would not have been preceded by events making him possible. Those preceding events themselves could not have occured without conditions making them possible. Conclusion? Life and man were possible and did occur as a result of the confluence of conditions ideal for that existence. Is this a tautology? Yes and no. Only possible things happen. Things that don't happen may be possible too; but, there is nothing to impel ALL possible events toward fruition. We are stuck with what we are stuck with.

    6.Jehovah cannot exist outside of his own dwelling place even as a fictitious character. To exist is to be somebody somewhere. That places him on a graph at a time and place mathematically. To be eternal is to not exist "actually". Why? The chaos, by acting chaotically (not according to plan or principle) ceases to be chaotic when it becomes an intelligent being capable of forming itself at will. (Both "X" and simultaneously "not X")

    7.By insisting on viewing all things through the tiny ethnic filter of a patchwork folk document we deliberately limit our peripheral view to exclude better, more reasonable and scientifically accurate realities.

    I failed. That is way too dense and windy. Nobody will read it.

  • William Penwell
    William Penwell

    One question, Where did God come from?

    Will

  • zoolander
    zoolander

    As another point of view to ezekiel3?s excellent post I have pasted a letter I wrote to the WT$ along a similar vein. I was counted unofficially as an apostate (thanks guys) for writing this letter and had a posy of elders come round to my place to give me the response which was from what I could work out from the WT$ was ?we don?t know the answer to this at this time?.

    I can?t say I necessarily agree with this anymore but somebody may find it interesting to read.

    In the Insight Book on page 853 it states ?Similarly, if, in certain respects, God chooses to exercise his infinite ability of foreknowledge in a selective way and to the degree that pleases him, then assuredly no human or angel can rightly say: ?What are you doing?? (Job 9:12; Isa 45:9; Da 4:35) It is therefore not a question of ability, what God can foresee, foreknow, and foreordain, for ?with God all things are possible.? (Mt 19:26) The question is what God sees fit to foresee, foreknow, and foreordain, for ?everything that he delighted to do he has done.??Ps 115:3.?

    There is no doubt that Jehovah can predict the future (along with foreknowledge and consistent with Jehovah?s name there is even less doubt that he causes prophecy to happen compare Am 3:7, 8, Isa 37:24, Rev 12:6 with Mat 24) but is this ability of foreknowledge infinite (Jehovah would have the infinite ability of foreordination Isaiah 55?11 but this is not the subject of this letter), is the belief and teaching of Jehovah?s infinite ability to foreknow the future consistent with God?s word (compare Ecclesiastes 9:11) or is this simply an answer to what Calvin taught?

    The text used to prove that Jehovah has an ?infinite ability of foreknowledge? is Mathew 19:26. If we look at this scripture in context with cross reference?s we can see if this proves that Jehovah has an ?infinite ability of foreknowledge?

    Mt 19:23-26
    ?Truly I say to YOU that it will be a difficult thing for a rich man to get into the kingdom of the heavens. 24 Again I say to YOU, It is easier for a camel to get through a needle?s eye than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of God.? 25 When the disciples heard that, they expressed very great surprise, saying: ?Who really can be saved?? 26 Looking them in the face, Jesus said to them: ?With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

    Does the context of this scripture suggest that Jesus was discussing the fundamental design of the universe or was he discussing Jehovah?s ability to save people compared to man?s inability? If someone were to say ?this new job has opened up endless possibilities for me? would we then conclude that this man was claiming infinite ability to foresee the future? Surely the word possible must be taken in context or otherwise we would get into circular arguments such as ?can God create a rock that he can?t lift? or ?can god find something that he finds impossible.? Similarly in Mathew 17 Jesus said ?He said to them: ?Because of YOUR little faith. For truly I say to YOU, If YOU have faith the size of a mustard grain, YOU will say to this mountain, ?Transfer from here to there,? and it will transfer, and nothing will be impossible for YOU?. Would we now conclude that Jesus disciples with enough faith have infinite abilities at foresight?

    To get a more balanced understanding of this scripture in Mathew we could look at a similar account in Luke 18 which reads 24 Jesus looked at him and said: ?How difficult a thing it will be for those having money to make their way into the kingdom of God! 25 it is easier, in fact, for a camel to get through the eye of sewing needle than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of God.? 26 Those who heard this said: ?Who possibly can be saved?? 27 He said: ?The things impossible with men are possible with God.

    Here we see a direct contrast between man?s ability and God?s, rather than an across the board claim of infinite ability. The Reference Bible at Zecariah 8:6 ?Although it shall be impossible in the sight of the remaining ones of this people in those days, shall it also be impossible in my sight?? LXX.? It is noteworthy that in the footnote the word ?impossible? in the Greek Septuagint could also be translated into English as the word ?difficult? by the authors of the New World Translation.

    Jehovah is All Knowing

    There is no statement in the bible I can find that states Jehovah has an infinite ability at foreknowledge. There is no example of Jehovah foretelling the eternal future of an individual unless their life course had already panned out. We could note the example of ones such as Judas who Jesus later spoke of as the ?son of destruction? in John 17:12. It was not inconceivable that Judas could have been forgiven for his sin but Jehovah judges the heart 1 Sam 16:7. The Insight Book clearly defines how much prediction was involved with Judas.

    Paul wrote regarding himself In 1 Tim 1:8 ?From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day?. This scripture written in 65 CE after Paul had spent most of his life serving Jehovah. Before this Paul indicates that this acceptance was something he was still striving to achieve (Phil 3:12).

    The way that Jehovah eternally judges people (good or bad) is based on what is in a person?s heart according to their actions. If then Jehovah does not have the ability of infinite foreknowledge, could that be consistent with I John 3:19:20 which states, ?By this we shall know that we originate with the truth, and we shall assure our hearts before him 20 as regards whatever our hearts may condemn us in, because God is greater than our hearts and knows all things.??

    Yes, because to know all things is to know everything there is to know. If every human?s future was able to be known then according to this scripture Jehovah would know it. Jehovah God is one person who invented and conceived everything down to the tiniest atom. There is nowhere in the bible to suggest that he tunes into the six o?clock news to get updates or has a giant forecasting super computer that he logs into to get predictions on the future. There is also no reason to believe he segregates his mind and puts all the bits of information there that is not convenient to know. Gen 22:12 which reads, ?for now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son? would be meaningless if that knowledge existed somewhere in Jehovah?s mind. If there is any doubt as to the extent Jehovah goes to know things please review the scriptures listed here (Prov 15:3, Jere 16:17, 23:24-25, Heb 4:13 Zech 4:10).

    Jehovah is All Powerful

    Does Jehovah not having the ability of infinite foresight suggest that he is not all powerful? Wouldn?t that mean that Jehovah has power over all that he has created? Surely we would not imagine that Jehovah somehow has created a world where he has implanted some kind of back door just in case things go wrong. Why wouldn?t Jehovah have the power to make a world where people have true free choice (Gen 2 16, 17)?

    To illustrate;

    A team of competent computer programmers are commissioned to spend 2 years to build a secure system. At the end of this period all the passwords are changed so they don?t have system access. Would it be reasonable (especially in light of security flaws highlighted in the news of the world?s major computer systems) to believe they would be able to break into that system again? The reason they could more than likely break in is because no human can make a perfect system.

    Mankind?s modern quest to create intelligent machines (neural networks, robots, artificial intelligence) has proved to be an impossible challenge. So while it is difficult or even impossible for man to create intelligent life with a self defining destiny the scripture in Luke 18:27 (He said: ?The things impossible with men are possible with God.?) could apply.

    To believe that Jehovah?s almightiness dictates that he must have the ability to infinitely foresee everything is a short sighted, ?knee jerk? reaction to the word all-powerful. Perhaps this one reason Jehovah said to Moses ?I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty [be´El´ Shad?dai´], but as respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to them.? (Ex 6:3). Jehovah?s name along with all the other titles that he is known by gives us a far more balanced idea of how Jehovah created the world!

    Jehovah?s all knowingness, prophecy, ?possibility to do things men can?t?, foreknowledge, and foreordination describe only his power and ability but not the reason why he did things. Focusing only on Jehovah?s power gives little evidence as to whether intelligent creatures were created with a predictable or an unpredictable future. The articles you sent me agree that Jehovah does not foresee the eternal future of all individuals (from birth etc). If we look at some of Jehovah?s qualities (excluding the ones already used in the articles you sent me proving Jehovah does not ?use? an infinite ability of foreknowledge) does it suggest that he designed the world with this ability in the first place?

    Jehovah?s Wisdom

    Psalm 104 24 says, ?How many your works are, O Jehovah! All of them in wisdom you have made. The earth is full of your productions?. Would it have been wise for Jehovah to create intelligent creatures with a predictable future? It could have been, if the world was eternally perfect (of course, there would be no free will in this world). To create humans with a predictable future without foreseeing that future first would have been folly considering the consequences.

    Jehovah?s word in Proverbs 22, 3 says, ?Shrewd is the one that has seen the calamity and proceeds to conceal himself, but the inexperienced have passed along and must suffer the penalty?. Why would Jehovah have ignored his own wise advice? Imagine the pain he must have suffered hearing his own son beg him to ?remove this cup from me? even crying out ?Abba, Father? (Mark 14 36), and then dying painfully as if a common evildoer, all this for predictable humans? Would we consider a father wise if he lost his family on a camping trip to hyperthermia for the sake of tuning into a radio station to listen to a weather forecast?

    It would be wise to create beings that were truly unpredictable free moral agents (though considering Jehovah?s position as the ?happy God? 1st Titus 1, 11 it was an incredibly brave and selfless act) because then Jehovah will have individuals serve him eternally not because of law or some genetic advantage but out of love. Unlike law, which Adam broke soon after being created, Jehovah wisely would have known that ?love never fails?. (1st Corinthians 13, 8). The bible clearly shows though that Jehovah wisely has an ultimate outcome and will not allow the world to continually be plagued by wickedness (compare Rev 1, 8 Isaiah 45, 18 Isaiah 55, 11 Psalms 37 10-11, 29).

    Jehovah?s Justice

    Exodus 21:36 says ?Or if it was known that a bull was in the habit of goring formerly but its owner would not keep it under guard, he should without fail make compensation with bull for bull, and the dead one will become his own.?. Would the argument stand that the owner had chosen to personally not know what his bull had done; now he had the ability to reasonably foreknow the outcome of his bull if left unguarded?

    Galatians 5:14 says ?For the entire Law stands fulfilled in one saying, namely: ?You must love your neighbour as yourself?. If we had the ability to foreknow something serious that would affect our neighbour but choose not to look it up; could we say that we fulfilling the scripture above?

    If Jehovah was to stand before a court of law; would the judge find it acceptable that six thousand years of human suffering could have been avoided by simply looking up our eternal futures and perhaps giving Adam a different genetic makeup? If Jehovah used the argument that he didn?t look up our futures to protect ?free will?, would not the prosecuting lawyer in this hypothetical court argue that people didn?t really have free will and this was just an excuse to play out some kind of game.

    This court will never happen because Deuteronomy 32:4,5 says ?The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he. They have acted ruinously on their own part; They are not his children, the defect is their own. A generation crooked and twisted.?

    Acts 10:34, 35 says ?At this Peter opened his mouth and said: ?For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him?. Would Jehovah have inspired Luke to record Peter?s speech if he had created people with a predictable future? If our eternal futures were predictable would not our genetic makeup?s come into play as to whether we where righteous or not? Is it possible that people have used this belief; that God has some how ?fated? them (whether directly or indirectly) to their lot in life (e.g. taking no responsibility to learn about God or perhaps believing they had a natural superiority because of heritage like the Pharisees of Jesus time)? If this belief where true would not Jehovah be some what responsible for the racial wars that have plagued human history?

    A strict belief in fate is the worst of slavery, imposing upon our necks an everlasting lord and tyrant, whom we are to stand in awe of night and day. - Epicurus

  • Big Tex
    Big Tex

    Hi Derek and welcome.

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    I would love to hear a response from one who believes in Free-will AND and The Almighty Creator of All. I do not believe they could reasonable rationalize both.

    I'm game.

    God exists. I know that's a hell of a starting statement for any Socratic method, but bear with me. I'm just going to have to say that he does and leave it at that.

    What is time? It is the sequence of events. Zen was right when he said that there were no "alternate universes" or "time travel" possible. Events are the result of collisions of matter and energy in infinite combinations.

    Therefore, since this is the only universe, the only time possible, how can we allow for free will? It would seem that if all our choices are the results of our "natures" as Terry put it; and that free will is an illusion, then we have no options. Fate by circumstance, if you will.

    But, as chaos theory is pointing out, circumstance is simply not predictable. At least by our intelligence. Quantum theory also points out that it is impossible to measure the location of an object. All it can do is calculate probabilities. Try pinning down an electron, or hand drawing a Mandelbrot. It's way beyond our ability to understand, but the fact is that NOT EVERY ELECTRON IS GOING TO WIND UP IN THE SAME PLACE EVERY TIME, no matter how controlled you try to make the experiement. Variability is not the same as free will, I understand, but it is interesting.

    The universe is uncontrollable. Youcan make predictions about what you think is going to happen today, but in the end, we can't even begin to understand why it rains one day and doesn't the next. Or why the pheremones from one female drive you mad and the ones from the other merely make you bored. The sheer complexity of the universe has been dumbed down for Newtonian purposes, and a good job too. If the materialists ever really tried to see the incredible void of reality, the dreadful distances between souls, their eyelids would peel back in horror and they'd go mad, like in Lovecraft's "The Great God Pan." They'd probably stop wearing socks, like Einstein. Because who cares about feet when your mind is an infinite distance from your body?

    OR they'd believe in God. But that's just crazy... isn't it?

    The point is, free will works because if it didn't, I wouldn't have contravened my nature for so many years and in so many times for so many undefinable reasons.

    CZAR

  • ezekiel3
    ezekiel3

    Czar: thank you for your contribution and like Socrates said,

    "I perplex others, not because I am clear, but because I am utterly perplexed myself. And now I know not what virtue is, and you seem to be in the same case, although you did once perhaps know before you touched me. However, I have no objection to join with you in the enquiry"

    You have an very interesting way of defining God. If I understand you, God let loose this "chaos" But by that thought God is also subject to it. But this would not be an Almighty God in control of the universe and guiding it to his purpose. Your God would be similiar to a computer scientist allowing a random generator run its course, completely out of control of the outcome. I could accept this theory, but a JW or other fundamentalist would not.

    Zoolander: They end the letter with a quote from Epicurus?!! WTS consistantly plays both sides of this issue. They say God has the power for foresight, but God would never use it in an individual's fate. Why? Because the scriptures and our common sense tell us so. The fact is the scriptures contradict themselves.

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    I'd also add a coda, if I might. A clearer definition of "almighty" is probably necessary. God cannot do that which contravenes the rules he has already agreed to play by. While it might be possible, for instance, to create a universe where naked women appeared for Czar every time he wiggled his willy, it is NOT going to happen in this universe. Because when God set it up, he subjected all within it to its rules and doesn't interfere with them. It is no more possible to allow my Instant Orgy than for God to contradict himself. Because he already said, without words, that such a thing is not possible in our universe.

    If i want an orgy I'm going to have to work for it... hee hee hee...

    Now, as C.S. Lewis said, "Nonsense is nonsense, even to God." So be very careful that what you are asking Almighty to do is not an inherent contradiction in and of itself according to the given parameters of the universe such an act is to occur. For instance, to demand that "blue" be made "red" is to require that the language of English change its definitions of "blue" and "red". If however, you require God to alter the spectrum of light reflected by all "blue" objects into the "red" regions; such an act could be possible. But wouldn't those blue objects then take on a slightly different shade of red than traditionally red objects, and come to be the new "blue" once again? And what would be the point of such nonsense anyway?

    If you are asking God to eliminate human suffering, well, human suffering is part of the universe. So is the suffering of animals, seedlings, and protozoa. I imagine that a seed hurts as it becomes a tree, but it would be neither profitable nore desirable to allow it to remain a seed forever.

    CZAR

  • ezekiel3
    ezekiel3
    A clearer definition of "almighty" is probably necessary.

    Agreed. My entire argument is based in the premise that 1) God created time and 2) God has the power of prophecy. This definition of "almighty" would also include the fact the God has provided Jesus as a redeemer of original sin (an example realigning human existance to God's eventual purpose). This little box that JWs put God into also corresponds to most Christain fundamentalists beliefs (except Calvanists of course).

    As we mentally masturbate each other among the pillars of philosophy (and by all means continue!), I am trying to press the point that "Jehovah" as most Christains know him has to know the whole picture. Let's use some of the quotes from zoo's letter to show how hollow the reasoning is:

    There is no doubt that Jehovah can predict the future (along with foreknowledge and consistent with Jehovah?s name there is even less doubt that he causes prophecy to happen ... but is this ability of foreknowledge infinite ... is the belief and teaching of Jehovah?s infinite ability to foreknow the future consistent with God?s word?

    The answer is no.

    It is therefore not a question of ability, what God can foresee, foreknow, and foreordain, for ?with God all things are possible.? (Mt 19:26) The question is what God sees fit to foresee, foreknow, and foreordain

    So God makes it an option eh? But that still means that Cyrus, Alexander the Great, even Lord Nelson were not in control of their fates.

    Yes, because to know all things is to know everything there is to know.

    There is also no reason to believe he segregates his mind and puts all the bits of information there that is not convenient to know.

    Direct contradiction of previous statement.

    Why wouldn?t Jehovah have the power to make a world where people have true free choice

    This would mean not messing with the results and hinting at the future to his chosen people. What happened to Babel?

    6

    After that Jehovah said: "Look! They are one people and there is one language for them all, and this is what they start to do. Why, now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be unattainable for them. 7 Come now! Let us go down and there confuse their language that they may not listen to one another?s language

    True free choice?

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    ezekiel,

    I've shown several times that JWs MUST believe in predestination. For example, someone HAD to betray Jesus in order for prophecy to be fulfilled. It turns out that someone was Judas. By fulfilling prophecy, Judas was screwed. Had Judas not fulfilled prophecy by refusing to betray Jesus, someone else would have had to do it and that someone would be screwed. Had NO ONE betrayed Jesus, then "God" would be a false prophet, and that simply cannot be allowed to happen.

    Therefore, SOMEONE was predestined to get screwed hundreds of years before birth.

    There are many more examples that could be used even without resorting to quantum mechanics. "Good" cannot exist in the set called "everything" without "evil" also existing in that set. Therefore, if God created "good" he would also have had to create "evil." And if he created "evil", WHY did he create "evil?"

    Farkel

  • czarofmischief
    czarofmischief

    Of course you and I have long abandoned the primitive Jehovah model of God, Farkel, but for the sake of the newbies, let me put it this way-

    roses grow in manure. Ergo, good grows among the shite of our material lives. Or so we would hope.

    In the end, maybe God doesn't even know we're here...

    CZAR

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