God and the Concept of Time (page 5)

myelaine

apologies for hi-jacking this post, but my arguements have everything to do with God's TIME with us.

michelle

ezekiel3

Ballistic: I think has confused a couple of posters and they have been side tracked from the main issue by trying to describe time.

Yes, but the consideration of "God and time" is a coffin nail in the Christain free-will idea. There is another thread on-going about free-will that will not die. I've noticed the discussion is a bit like Irish boxing. But the foundation of Christain free will becomes sand when you consider God unfettered by the mystery of the future.

Myelaine, I have enjoyed your contributions, no hijacking here. "Hijacking," thats were a person seizes control of a vehicle by use of force, especially to reach an alternate destination. Sounds like something God would do...

Terry

Let me try one more time.

Would you give a jackhammer to a two year old and say "Break up all the concrete in the driveway by 5pm or you're dead meat"?

No, the child isn't old enough or strong enough to take on such a task. The NATURE of the child's limitations makes the order pointless and cruel.

God, if he created man, knows the limitations of human nature. Isn't it a bit odd that the only human capable of strict obedience to God was fathered by God himself? No way Jesus was a natural birth (as in ordinary humans).

God made some vessels fit for destruction. Who is the vessel to ask why?

The above reflects the problem inherent in such discussions of time.

Time is irrelevent. Why?

1.What god required from humans was outside their nature; i.e. Impossible. That is why even a perfect couple like Adam and Eve could not obey.

2.God's rescue plan was pure grandstanding and evidence of his Munchausen by Proxy syndrome. He puts mankind in mortal danger and then rescues them so he can be worshiped as the hero.

3.It doesn't matter if god sees the future. He determines the future by the nature of the things he makes. It is the "stuff" of which we are made that limits us to a certain range of propensities.

4.I don't for a moment believe the first three are situations that exist in any reality other than human imagination. Consequently the whole question is moot.

myelaine

He determines the future by the nature of the things he makes

Terry,

A truer statement was never made. With the gift of freewill, that God gave us, it was our nature to find evil. Because we have found evil and found a purpose for it. God has determined that His creation will not kill themselves with it. He has determined to save us from ourselves.

Just to note...God's intervention does not void our free will, The Bible states that there is a place reserved for those that don't choose God. In that place they are free to continue in their ways apart from those that chose God.

michelle

zen nudist

Just because time is something we use to measure things, and we percieve time as sequential events I think has confused a couple of posters and they have been side tracked from the main issue by trying to describe time. The way we percieve and use time does not preclude the fact that it is an inherant part of space in which we live and would exist without our conciousness.

you are looking at time as a property of reality, there is nothing in the nature of time which verifies this...everything about any time we discuss is always in relation to some means of measuring actual properties of space and objects in it, namely changes of relationships compared and contrasted with other changes and relationships. There are many myths that science invented with its mythical concept of an objective universe which has no relationship to those in it and it seems that some aspects of time have become tangled too. Quantum physics found that you cannot take the observer out of the observed quite so neatly and set science in a new more accurate view of things...one which makes no sense at all if you subtract the ones make the measurements and not much more when you don't

redhat7

i too, having a puny human brain am unable to grasp the concepts of time that you are proposing, so i am going to to stick with the bibles (faithfull and discreet slave) explanation on this one.

Abaddon

All logical debates about the nature of god do is show how utterly silly the idea of any god in the Judao-Christo-Islamic tradition being real is.

The supporting literature for such entities always ends up making them look like psychotic monsters who set things up in full knowledge of the outcome but who were more focused on their goals than the suffering of millions of sentient creatures. Obviously there are various ineffable arguments to defend god against this view, but they are ineffable and of little use.

wheres caleb?

History Channel: The Ancient Egyptians may have used kites to fly two-ton stones into place. Check it out! I'm not making this up!

The concept of time. My understanding was that time began when God created Jesus. I'm more interested in knowing why he chose to create. Supposedly, I am here because of that. According to the bible, Jesus was the first-born of all creation and everything else was created through him. ( forgive my JW teaching) People that I have talked to claim that the answers are in the bible.

I'm willing to admit that I am confused by issues of faith to be able to debate this issue. Is ignorance because of a lack of understanding or a lack of awareness?

Can I choose to believe something because it stems from my own experience? Or can two-ton stones fly? Are the answers in the search for answers?

I respect those that constantly look for answers, or have the answers, and that is why I enjoy this forum so much.

Undecided

There are a few things we can control, most things we can't, so why worry about all the stuff we can't understand or change.

We know for a fact we will live or die within a certain specified time, within a hundred years or maybe a few more. Sometimes I wonder what's the point anyway, unless there is a life after this one, which we know less about than time and gravity. We are a miserable bunch of know nothings. But I saved on my insurance, I thought that ment something.

Ken P.

Annanias

Steven Hawking described time as the "enevitable march toward entropy" of the universe. Now, supposedly, with 11 dimensional "Brane" theory explaining the Big Bang, time is "shown" to have existed before this particular universe. However, Brane theory also allows for an infinite number of parallel universes, in which an infinite number of things is possible, i.e. a universe where I don't exist. (But maybe a universe where I'm the Messiah? Cool!) The point to this is that if Brane theory is correct and Jehovah has set it all up that way, time doesn't mean anything anyway because, hey, it's all happened somewhere. An interesting concept to time within this universe (especially for JW's) is the concept that with the reinstatement of "everlasting life", the first death will be time. So, according to Hawking, the reason we are concerned with/effected by time is because, for us right now, it is finite. Free will has to exist by definition. Don't believe that you have free will? Here's a test: what is the one thing that God cannot do? (Yes, he can lie, we'd just never know it.) He cannot make you worship him.

God and the Concept of Time

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