Narkissos, Your absolutely right. I obviously do have my own questions. I'm working on them. I actually first looked at this board 2 or 3 years ago. I would lurk for a week and then not come back (and try not to think about it) for a few months. I first stumbled across "appostate" material in 1994. This was also online. That stuff confirmed in my mind at the time that appostates were just plain crazy. It was about how the society "hides" images in their pictures and that kind of stuff. I don't think it was a coincidence that the X-files was a top show at the time ;-). Anyway, after the change in 1995 I thought about things a lot more. How convenient a change. When I'd express these thoughts to my wife she would just say "trust the pattern of helpful words" and "you know that the light will get brighter". These phrases are ingrained. Problem is that I love her. I love my kids and don't want to lose them or live in a house that is so divided. If it were just me the decision would be easy. One other funny note that I just remembered. Maybe a couple years ago when we had a sheparding call I said to one of the elders that I was having problems with the 1995 change. He looked confused. "Which change" he said. Thew generation change, the fact that 1914 really doesn't mean as much now. "Oh that, yeah...well the light des get brighter..." That was it. That was all he said and I never heard another word about it.
Questions
by 2evil 65 Replies latest jw friends
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Bubbamar
Welcome 2evil!! Congrats to you for opening your mind and asking some very important questions. I'm not an exelder or anything so I'm not really qualified I guess....but Ray Franz is and so I also highly recommend his book. Steven Hassan has also written some excellent books about mind control that can help you deal with the nagging doubts you are having.I also wanted to address this comment:
The organization cannot be stopped.
If that is evidence that the organization is "God's Organization" then the same logic could easily be applied to many, many other organizations and cults including the Catholic church, Scientology, Mormons, etc. That would mean that every organization we find that cannnot be stopped is of God. I think its easy to see that statement is not true.
THe JW's have some very black and white thinking. Their organization continues on because of a lot of reasons. A few are: Armageddon phobias, disfellowshipping doctrines, emotional needs met by the control of the organization and magical answers provided by the organization, etc. I wonder how long their organization would last if they quit DFing people. How many would leave or quit going in field service if it weren't for fear of being DF'ed and losing all their friends and family. How many would read "apostate" literature if it weren't demonized by the WT? How many new people would join if they were totally honest from the start about their failed armageddon dates?
Good luck on your journey! You have a lot of research to do. There is a lot of good information out there and many helpful people on this board.
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Annanias
Like a lot of others on this board, your attitudes sound a lot like mine. In reading their comments, I can assure you that you that you will get a plethora of differing religious opinions here. Your statement about the UN/NGO thing was heartwarming because you indicated that you are actually, honestly thinking about this stuff.
But what I wanted to address is the chilling statements about what your wife said to you, because I hear the seeds of the same kind of disaster that has almost (literally) killed me. Do not, do not, do not, do not, do notx1000 toss away what your wife says and feels like so much noise. First of all, she has a right to her feelings, her outlook, her dreams, just like the rest of us. Now, that having been said, you are going to have to determine what is best for YOUR FAMILY. Not just you. I know the doubts that you are at war with. But what is happening right now, and what you two do/think/say right now, are seeds, the result of which won't be seen for another 10 years. How important is your family to you? Important enough to die for? How about important enough to eat mindless drivel for the next 20 years? Now the biggy question: how important is religion in your relationship as a couple united in marriage, and as a family? You indicated "not much" because you don't "study", don't FS, don't meeting, but those are trappings, not substance. How much do you mention Jehovah around your children each day? How much do you consider his thoughts in front of them? To yourself? Between your wife and yourself? I would guess that it is quite a lot, otherwise you wouldn't be having this discussion. If religion is a "big deal" in your family, what have you got to replace the one you already have? Will that vaccuum make a difference to your family?
What I mean is this: does your wife love you because you're you, or does she love you because she doesn't want to piss off her God? ( Her "never get what I want" statement is one that should be mediated on at length) Do you love your wife and your family because you've always heard the "elders" say it should be so, or because they are your family? Religion, especially the JW religion because of it's fatalism and the fact that all life is held in constant comparison to some ethereal, and unattainable ideal, is a weapon. To a loving, honest, truthful people, religion rarely (if ever) is a shield, but in fact, becomes a sword for some heartless, selfish pig to use to cut hearts out. If you continue to stay around this board and ask questions and investigate, the emptiness within you is just going to get bigger and bigger. All the while, your wife will be getting more and more ammo towards getting rid of your sorry butt, and (trust me on this) if your FS score is low and your lips aren't chapped from kissing the "elders'" butts you will NOT receive any support from your congo when the chips are down. Unless your wife looks like an M1 Abrams (and then, it's only 50-50), the moment she goes to the elders and sniffles and moans because you're not "spiritual" enough, you are dead meat. They will be all over her, with sympathy and love and caring and assurances that the devil has taken you and yadda, yadda, yadda. I have never known an "elder" not to fall for the "Oh, you're my hero!" gag yet.
*******DISCLAIMER!!!! Before I get burned at the stake here, I am using the word "wife" because you have indicated that you are male and a husband. I am not saying that women get prefferential treatment. What I am saying is that the borg sees life through and extremely narrow keyhole: the congo. In the never ceasing stupidity of the human race, if they can reduce it to numbers they will. "Wow, brother X has 10 hours this month, brother Y only 7. Hmm, well, I guess brother X is more 'spiritual' than brother Y. Yup, yup, yup!"
The result of all this is that you are about to embark upon a very, very painful mission. Not just for you, but for your family as well. By staying with this board, you will learn things you never knew existed, you will, indeed, gain a freedom you didn't know was possible. But that freedom ain't free!!! Where you might be delighted and happy and dancing on air, your family may not see it so. But maybe that's okay, it ain't our call.
You have doubts, you're no different than anyone else; and the fence sitting is starting to hurt your butt. I was once told that I could take myself out of "the truth" if I wanted, but I could never take "the truth" out of me. Funny thing though, at least for me, the opposite is true as well.
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New Castles
2evil
I read your post and the similarities in our situations is striking. I too sometime ago was in a similar situation. I agree with others here on that you should read Crisis of Conscience. It will give a different perspective on the Governing Body. Unfortunate for me my situation at home did not get better, but thats not the case all the time. Give it time, continue to research and things will work out. The confusion will soon dissipate...
Good Luck and Welcome to the board
NC
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kls
So 2evil is your head spinning yet? lots of great folks to help.
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2evil
Actually, I have looked into the 607 issue before. I remember looking this up on the CD a few years ago and finding the explanation given plausable. I will research it again. The reason the generation change sticks out in my mind so much is that it was used so much in service while I was growing up. This put a timeframe to the time of the end and was used to show people the urgency of the times. It just had to change. They had no choice. From the little bit I read from Franz book (posted somewhere on Atlanta Journal Constitiution) I remember him wonder how and when they would deal with this. Inkie: What I mean by "not a good witness" is that I put in maybe 1-3 hours per month in service. Have for the last 10 years. I don't do personal study and religion in general really doesn't interest me that much. The bookstudy and watchtower are not so hard to follow that I have ever felt that I need to study them a head of time. I pick up on misapplication of scripture and the interwoven themes of organizational authority and loyalty every meeting. I was born into this and I'm just trying to keep my family together. I don't want to make any life ENDING decisions along the way.
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DaCheech
2evil:
First left me tell you there is no Holy Spirit in the Org: I am a ministerial servant, have been asked to be elder twice, and the whole time I have known about the WT teachings to be false!
Yeah, a liar to the congregation was nominated by the holy spirit to be Ministerial Servant and Elder!
Eplain that? Well what's the reasoning for his spirit nominating me when my soul was like this? They do not have a clue! God's spirit was with the early Christian congregation of the 1st century, NOT WITH Rutherford's Jehovahs!But let me give you some good advice (since I'm in the same situation) and (my wife and family are deep worker bees). Just try to keep sane, talk to people like us who can make you feel better about yourself, since to those people you are a "rotten apostate, meriting death". If you love your family and wife, you are stuck and just have to fade in spirit only.
The whole rank system is something you should not feel left out of. My father in law was an elder and everybody kissed his arse, but the minute he took himself off due to financial circumstances he his treated like a plague (unfortunately he does not see this, and his wife blames him!).
There is not spirit of god here. keep your head straight and don't pick any fights (I have tried, and my wife almost had a miscarriage..... So I let it go) fortunately my family has no idea I come here to let out some steam from seen injustices.
I thank all the people here for sharing my experience
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Odrade
Wow! 2evil, you sound exactly like my husband... minus the two kids. Our parents are multi-gen JWs and/or bigshots. I was the die-hard JW wife who was disappointed in him and made big sighs and hurt looks everytime I had to go to meeting without him. Well, I'm here now, and not going back.
maybe I can chat with you a little later... I'm headed into work right now. Glad you found us.
Odrade
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2evil
I should explain what my wife means by "what she wants". My wife is a rare person. She does love me for me, almost to a fault. She is afraid right now. What she wants is a "spiritual family, that goes out in service and studies together." Since I've told her that it's my doubts that are holding me back and I wont talk to the elders about it further she concludes that I will not progress and it will "effect our whole family." Her intentions are good. She believes this is the truth whole heartedly. Gets depressed when she misses meetings, etc. I wish she would open her mind a bit on her own. It's just not going to happen.
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kls
2evil, i am married to a JW and i was one also. After telling my husband i wanted out of the WT life became hell. There is no easy way out for her your family of you. Eventually your family will catch on that you are falling away and you will have to live a lie or face what you really believe because living a lie will tear you up. What ever you decide take it slow.