by booker-t 251 Replies latest watchtower scandals
I also wonder what happened to Michael when he was crucified and died.
Yeah funny no answer, as I said, in heaven Mikey either commits suicide or God kills him.
Because the Jw cannot have Jesus with a dual nature.
edited to add: Ross,I was wondering when you'd show up.
LittleToe says: Terry:You write to Leo:By all means; amuse yourselves here whatever way you wish.Is her pastime any less worthy than yours of reading exactly the same threads, and baiting anyone who holds a contrary position? At least she has something to add to the subject, rather than just running folks down. Ya pays ya money, ya takes ya choice...
On the other subject, are you saying that we have your wife to thank for the oral-sex prohibition?
If so, do you think the reason was that too many men were crying out " Oh God, oh Jesus!", under wifely ministrations? I can see how that would chap the WTS's hide After all, it might have been passable if they'd only yelled "Oh Michael, oh Jesus!"
I reread my post and it did come out rather bristly and contrary. Yes, I should have just taken a nap instead of injecting into the thread. You'll notice I hardly ever post at all anymore anyway.
About the second subject; yes, it was indeed my wife's letter that triggered the embargo. What is so difficult to understand is this. She and I had NEVER engaged in oral sex. Why the question arose in her mind is beyond my comprehension. I didn't ask her because I didn't find out until after we were divorced and not on speaking terms anymore.
I guess you never know what inner life another person has and you cannot know unless they tell you.
I think the Watchtower answer guys came from a much earlier generation of strait-laced and inhibited (about sex) disciplinarian parents who put a cachet of homo-erotic fear into the subconsciousness of these anointed geniuses. They had the equivalent mindset of white rednecks who won't allow blacks to attend school with whites or swim in the same swimming pools. It is reactionary and vicious although dressed up in "reasonable" explanations. I say ptooie to those cosmocrats.
EW:
I've been away for a week. I'll hopefully post about it later.
Terry:
I think you're right about the WTS mindset. It comes through in their doctrines, too, which seem to be more about remaining distinct from what they see as Christendom, than what their authority-text (the bible) has to say.
I guess you never know what inner life another person has and you cannot know unless they tell you.
How very true.
You sometimes have to wonder, huh?
How did the subject come to light?
is anyone up to a discussion of grim's fairy tales?
i think there is a lot of evidence indicating that clever Hans and Hansel from Hansel and Gretel are in fact the same person.
Did Hans like gingerbread? I think not!
Well, that puts paid to that theory
LT
Something that crossed my mind whilst reading it is that if "Jesus" is the name above every other name, then why would he take the name "Michael" in Revelation, to do business?
I'll PM you with the rest of that article.
By the way, at the start of the thread, booker-T said:
To my surprise Martin Luther thought Jesus and Michael were the same person, Ireanous of the 2nd century thought that Jesus was Michael, Justin Martyer thought that Jesus was an "angel".
I can't find anything close to Martin Luther stating any such thing. Do you or anyone else know what he was talking about? The only thing I can think of, is the debate about who the angle of the Lord is in the Old Testament.
D Dog
A list of the things Michael is said to do:
He is the only one who stands firm with Gabriel and helps him: "Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these {forces} except Michael your prince." Daniel 10:13, 21
He arises in a time of distress such as has never been before, likely the time of the end: "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands {guard} over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued." Daniel 12
He disputed with the Devil over Moses' body: "But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Jude 9
He and his angels throw Satan out of heaven: "And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war," Revelation 12
Christ descends with his voice: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." 1 Thessalonians 4:16
If we believe the Christ is God, one third of a Trinity, then he cannot be Michael. (Though some Trinitarians do argue that he is so I leave it open.)
But if we believe the Christ to be the Son of God, his first born creation but not a part of a Trinity Godhead, then to me it seems reasonable to conclude that Michael may just be the Christ prior to his coming to earth as a man.
Sabrina
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." 1 Thessalonians 4:16
Green: don't forget to check the asterisk footnote on the word Lord in this passage on the WT cd. # 16 I believe.
16 * Jehovah
Next question: Is Jehovah and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?
Will:
Good call.
Also, the voice is as the "trumpet of God", not just as of an "Archangel".
Green:Regardless of Trinitarian beliefs or otherwise, some would have Michael as Jesus and some would not.
Personally I don't think they are the same, but I'm not put out by some holding that belief. It's hardly essential to faith, unless it's used as a lever to denigrate Christ (as the WTS uses it).
The term "angel" doesn't have to mean "created being", just as the term "god" doesn't have to mean "omnipotent one".
Does the name Michael mean:
"Who is like God!" (a statement about the name bearer) or
"Who is like God?" (a praise of God Himself)?
If Jesus is Michael, then I suspect both. I'm yet to be convinced that way, though.
DD:Thanks for the article, I've PM'ed you.
I can't verify those references for you.
Green,
But if we believe the Christ to be the Son of God, his first born creation but not a part of a Trinity Godhead, then to me it seems reasonable to conclude that Michael may just be the Christ prior to his coming to earth as a man.
When was Jesus/Michael as you have it, become a first born creation?
