Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t 251 Replies latest watchtower scandals

• 

  blondie

  In LDS belief, Michael lived a mortal life as the patriarch Adam. Michael and Adam are regarded as the same person, but Michael alone is regarded as the immortal resurrected being (angel).

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel)

  Here's another but comical exposition:

  In 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the bible says Jesus will return to earth with "the voice of the archangel." And Jude 9 talks about "Michael the Archangel." Now these are the only two times that the bible mentions "archangel". Therefore, Jesus must be the Archangel Michael.

  Can't argue with that, now can you?

  But I think the bible equally supports the idea that Jesus is Elvis Presley. To see this, notice again that Jesus is said to have the voice of an angel (1 Th.4:16) and that he was sometimes referred to as "king" (see Mt.27:37 and Rev.19:16 for example). Now, as everyone knows, Elvis was often called "the king" and he had the voice of an angel -- just like Jesus! Therefore, Jesus must be Elvis Presley.
  
  So now I'm confused. Is Jesus Elvis or the archangel Michael?

  http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/topics/michael.html

  As to the WTS, they use the Michael = Jesus as a pillar of defense against the trinity. If Jesus is an angel, even an archangel, he can't be God.

  Blondie (That LDS belief was new to me, you never stop learning)
• 

  Happy Guy :)

  Now these are the only two times that the bible mentions "archangel"

  I would argue that because it is untrue. There is another section of the bible which says "...one of the archangels.." which implies one of many. I do not have an electronic version of the bible Blondie so it'll take some time for me to find that passage for you. My recollection is that it is a passage which has been altered by the WT to not reflect the plural nature but it is other versions.
• 

  blondie

  Happy Guy, that wasn't my belief, I just thought it was a funny analogy.

  Here is a good place to go for a variety of online Bibles.

  http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible

  They are Protestant translations.

  The Message Bible and the NLT have 3 references.

  Blondie
• 

  Leolaia

  Happy Guy....Sorry to say, "archangel" occurs so infrequently in the NT that it is not attested in plural form. Two archangels are mentioned however in the NT: Gabriel and Michael. Tobit mentions Raphael and all seven archangels are listed and described in 1 Enoch. I searched the TLG for all occurrences of Greek arkhangeloi in the literature; here are some of the results:

  1. Clemens Alexandrinus Theol., Stromata. {0555.004} Book 6 chapter 5 section 41 subsection 2 line 3. (Browse)
  6.5.41. (1.) ristousi tôi theôi, dia toutôn arnoumenoi auton einai. » kai hoti ge

  hôs ton auton theon hêmôn te autôn kai Hellênôn egnôkotôn phe- (2.) retai, plên ouch homoiôs, epoisei palin hôde pôs: « mêde kata Iou- daious sebesthe: kai gar ekeinoi monoi oiomenoi ton theon ginôskein ouk epistantai, latreuontes aggelois kai archaggeloi s, mêni kai (3.) selênêi. kai ean mê selênê phanêi, sabbaton ouk agousi to legome- non prôton, oude neomênian agousin oute azuma oute heortên oute (4.) megalên hêmeran. » eita ton kolophôna tou zêtoumenou prosepipherei « hôste kai humeis hosiôs kai dikaiôs manthanontes ha paradidomen humin, (5.) phulassesthe, kainôs ton theon dia tou Christou sebomenoi heuromen

  5. Apocalypsis Joannis, Apocalypsis apocrypha Joannis (versio tertia). {1158.003} Page 318 line 29. (Browse)
  dakruôn kai legousa: ouai moi tôi hamartôlôi tôi planêthenti en (25)

  hamartiais kai mê metanoêsanti ! kai paramenei ekei hê psuchê hêmeras m ´ kai apagetai hupo tôn aggelôn kai proskunei ton thronon tou Kuriou: tote horâi ton Huion tou theou kai lupêthêsontai hoi aggeloi kai archaggeloi hoti hupagêi hê psuchê eis kolasin aiônion meta po- nêrôn aggelôn. Kai gar ouk eisin hoi aggeloi ponêroi, mê ge- (30) noito, alla dia tas praxeis tôn hamartôlôn genêsontai kai hoi aggeloi ponêroi kai apagountai apenanti tôn kolaseôn hopou mel ( l ) oun kolazesthai eis holous tous aiônas, kai theôrei tous basanous hopou mel ( l ) oun kolazesthai kai legei: Kurie, Kurie, ho @1

  7. Liber Enoch, Apocalypsis Enochi (recensio ap. Syncellum). {1463.002} Chapter 9col1 section 1 line 2. (Browse)
  krisin hêmôn pros ton hupsiston, kai

  tên apôleian hêmôn enôpion tês doxês tês megalês, enôpion tou kuriou tôn (5) kuriôn pantôn têi megalôsunêi. (1.) @8 Kai akousantes hoi tessares megaloi archaggeloi , Michaêl kai Ouriêl kai Rhaphaêl kai Gabriêl, ( kai & Par. gr. 1711 $ ) parekupsan epi tên gên ek tôn hagiôn tou ouranou. (2.) @8 kai theasamenoi haima polu ekkechumenon epi tês gês kai pasan asebeian kai anomian geno-

  8. Liber Enoch, Apocalypsis Enochi (recensio ap. Syncellum). {1463.002} Chapter 9 col2 section 1 line 2. (Browse)
  kai theos tôn aiônôn, kai ho thronos tês

  doxês sou eis pasas tas geneas tôn (5) aiônôn, kai to onoma sou hagion kai eulogêmenon eis pantas tous aiônas. (1.) @8 Kai akousantes hoi tessares mega- loi archaggeloi , Michaêl kai Ouriêl kai Rhaphaêl kai Gabriêl, parekupsan ( = hoi d & Par gr. 1711 $ ) epi tên gên ek tôn hagiôn tou ouranou. (2.) @8 kai theasa- menoi haima polu ekkechumenon epi tês gês kai pasan anomian kai asebeian

  9. Liber Enoch, Apocalypsis Enochi (recensio ap. Syncellum). {1463.002} Chapter 9 col2 section 4 line 2. (Browse)
  pros allêlous hoti Ta pneumata kai hai

  psuchai tôn anthrôpôn entugchanousi stenazonta kai legonta Eisagagete tên deêsin hêmôn pros ton hupsiston. (4.) @8 kai proselthontes hoi tessares archaggeloi eipon tôi kuriôi su ei ho theos tôn theôn kai kurios tôn kuriôn kai basileus tôn basileuontôn kai theos tôn anthrôpôn, (5) kai ho thronos tês doxês sou eis pasas tas geneas tôn aiônôn, kai to onoma

  10. Liber Enoch, Apocalypsis Enochi (recensio ap. Syncellum). {1463.002} Chapter 9 section 4 line 2. (Browse)
  sou hagion kai eulogêmenon eis pantas

  tous aiônas, kai to onoma sou hagion kai eulogêmenon eis pantas tous (10) aiônas. 9. (4.) @8 & add. post $ aiônas : kai ta hexês. tote ho hupsistos ekeleuse tois hagiois archaggeloi s, kai edêsan tous exarchous autôn kai ebalon ( eballon & Par. gr. 1711 $ ) autous eis tên abusson, heôs tês kriseôs, kai ta hexês. kai tauta men ho Enôch marturei. (5.) @8 su gar ei ho poiêsas ta panta kai pantôn tên exousian echôn, kai panta enôpion sou phanera kai akalupta: kai panta horâis, kai ouk estin ho krubênai se dunatai. (6.) horâis hosa epoiêsen Azaêl kai ( & om. Par. gr. 1711 $ ) hosa eisênegken, ( & add. $ kai @1 Par. gr. 1711 $ ) hosa edidaxen, adikias kai hamartias epi tês gês kai panta dolon epi tês xêras. edidaxe gar ta mustêria kai apekalupse tôi aiôni ta en ouranôi. epitê- 11. Martyrium et Ascensio Isaiae, Legenda graeca ascensionis Isaiae. {1483.003} Chapter 2 verse 18 line 3. (Browse) negkô se eis ton hebdomon ouranon, tote gnôsêi akribôs hoti ouden lanthanei to theion ek tôn en ekeinôi tôi phthartôi kosmôi ginomenôn. ? (18.) Kai palin anêgagen me eis ton tetarton ouranon, kai eidon k'akei kata meson tou ouranou thronon, kai kuklôi tou thronou agge- loi kai archaggeloi humnountes ekeinon ton megan kai akatalêpton kai ton huion autou ton monogenê, ton kurion hêmôn Iêsoun Chri- ston. (19.) @8 Kai eith' houtôs anêgagen me eis ton pempton ouranon, kai eidon k'akei thronon kata to meson tou ouranou kai plêthos ana- rithmêton aggelôn kai archaggelôn. (20.) @8 Êsan de eis ton pempton ouranon kai hupothronia zôia anamemigmena meta tôn aggelôn,

  12. Martyrium et Ascensio Isaiae, Legenda graeca ascensionis Isaiae. {1483.003} Chapter 2 verse 40 line 3. (Browse)
  kai eipon: ? Hêmeis esmen theoi, kai plên hêmôn ouk estin allos (5)

  theos. ? (39.) @8 Hôsautôs katabêsêi kai pros ton aggelon tou hâidou en Ierousalêm: plên heôs tou teleutêsai se mê apeleusêi. (40.) @8 Kai estai en tôi thanatôthênai se hup' autôn anabêsêi hôde. Tote kathêsêi ek dexiôn mou, kai proskunêsousi se pantes aggeloi, archaggeloi , thronoi, kuriotêtes, archai, exousiai kai pasai tôn ouranôn hai dunameis, kai gnôsontai pasai hai tôn ouranôn stratiai hoti su ei (5) kurios met' emou tôn hepta ouranôn toutôn kai pasês tês dunameôs. ? (41.) Tauta êkouon tês doxês tês megalês legousês tôi kuriôi mou

  13. Martyrium et Ascensio Isaiae, Legenda graeca ascensionis Isaiae. {1483.003} Chapter 2 verse 42 line 4. (Browse)
  humnêsan, prosekunêsan pasai tôn ouranôn hai dunameis ton

  kurion. (42.) @8 Kai eidon hôs exêlthen ho kurios ek tou hektou ouranou, kai êlthen eis ton pempton ouranon. Ekei ouk edoxasan, ouch humnêsan oude prosekunêsan: ên gar hê eidea autou hôs hê autôn. Egineto gar en aggelois aggelos, en archaggeloi s archaggelos kai en dunamesi dunamis. (43.) @8 Kai houtôs diêlthen êrema kathexês kai tous loipous ouranous en toioutôi schêmati, kai katêlthen eis ton gêïnon kai thnêton kosmon eudokiâi tou patros, hôs autos monos ho kurios êthelêsen. »
• 

  Happy Guy :)

  Blondie: Thanks I picked that up when I clicked on your link. Very interesting site.

  Leolaia: Thanks for all your hard work. I think the point I was making and one which your evidence supports is that there is more than one archangel. One of the JW proofs of Jesus=Michael relies on the term archangel being applied to Jesus and Michael and the WT claim that there is only one archangel so they must be one and the same. The notion that the bible never once says in thousands of pages that Jesus=michael and the fact that it mentions more than one archangel disproves the Michael=Jesus claim.

  I agree with your assertion Blondie that WT has done this to give credibility to their anti-trinity doctrine.
• 

  heathen

  Or perhaps it is the other way around . I have no problem believing the bible was tampered with but usually to include pagan beliefs . My websters says that arch means , chief or first of a class. Since no other angel is named this but Michael in Jude vrs.9 I can only argue that there is only one . I know that some religions would like to include Gabriel or even satan at one point but it is not supported in the bible .

  Blondie -- it is my belief that jesus did not receive God status until he was resurected and given all authority in heaven and earth . To say he was God prior to that is part of the trinity belief . Mathew 28:18 .
• 

  euripides

  Leiolaia, to conduct a proper search for plural forms of Gk archaggelos you would need to search in all plural case endings, namely -oi, -on (omega), -ois, and -ous. However, I admire your thoroughness and academic approach, as I share many of your conclusions. What search engine are you using to look through the early church fathers literature? And I agree that the possibility of more than one archangel is crucial to understanding this point. WT did not invent Michael/Jesus crossover, which arose more out of anti-Catholic sentiment later and Athanasian adherence earlier, because it sought to avoid Jesus sharing of power with other angels who were named in other Jewish literature. In my view, asking if they are the same is to ask a theological question, the answer to which will vary depending on the theological perspective.
• 

  Narkissos

  Prior to inner Christian debate, Philo interestingly gathers several traditions to ascribe his Logos a kind of unique archangel status (De Confusione Linguarum 146):

  And even if there be not as yet any one who is worthy to be called a son of God, nevertheless let him labour earnestly to be adorned according to his first-born word, the eldest of his angels, as the great archangel of many names; for he is called, the authority, and the name of God, and the Word, and man according to God?s image, and he who sees ? Israel.?
• 

  Kenneson

  While a few of the Greek Fathers like Theodoret and Iraneus maintained that Jesus was the Angel of The Lord, the Latin Fathers like Jerome, Augustine, Gregory the Great, Aquinas and the other Scholastics as a body held the opposite view. Augustine probably sums it best: "Elsewhere in the Bible when a prophet speaks it is yet said to be the Lord who speaks, not of course because the prophet is the Lord but because the Lord is in the prophet, and so in the same way when the Lord consescends to speak through the mouth of a prophet or angel, it is the same as when he speaks by a prophet or apostle, and the angel is correctly termed as an angel if we consider him himself, but equally correctly is he termed "the Lord" because God dwells in him.: He concludes: "It is the name of the indweller, not of the temple." This view, propounded by the Latiin Fathers, is the one that the majority of Catholics hold today.
• 

  Greenpalmtreestillmine

  Jesus is Michael the Archangel.

  Daniel 10:13 has been brought up as evidence that he is not: "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me twenty-one days. So Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, and I left him there with the prince of the kingdom of Persia..."

  These "princes" are rulers and Michael is a ruler over the Jews as evidenced by Gabriel calling Michael the prince of Daniels people: "There is no one with me who contends against these princes except Michael, your prince." Daniel 10: 21b

  Later in chapter 12 of Daniel this same Michael is described in this way: ""At that time Michael, the great prince, the protector of your people shall arise. There shall be a time of anguish, such as has never occurred since nations first came into existence. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book."

  Who can be said to be one of the chief princes of the Jews and at the same time their deliverer? Jesus. As he himself asked, how can the Son of David be called Lord by his ancestor King David when he, the Son of David, is his descendant? David was a great ruler over Israel, as was Solomon and others. Yet this great ruler would call his "son" Lord. Yes, Jesus was the Son of David and he was his Lord. He was both a descendent in the kingly or princely rule and Lord over all the princes or rulers of Israel.

  The Bible does not say Michael was one of the chief Archangels but rather it says, Michael is one of the chief princes, one of the chief rulers!

  Just as King David was a chief prince or ruler over the Jews, his "son" Jesus was also a chief ruler over the Jews. Michael will always be regarded as one of the chief princes of the Jews because he was not their only prince or ruler. His ancestor David was also a chief ruler over them, as was Moses.

  But Michael as the Archangel, the chief angel, is the only archangel. He is also as Daniel 12 indicates the deliverer of his people at a time of great trouble or tribulation.

  Michael the Archangel is Jesus Christ, one of the chief princes of the Jews, one of their rulers, the last in a line of kings. Jesus never removed the dignity and position of King David, as ruler, prince and king of his people.

  Jesus was and is too beautiful and humble to do that, he is like his Father, beautiful in the extreme.

  Sabrina