The Watchtower and the Masons

by ozziepost 135 Replies latest jw friends

  • larc
    larc

    Someone suggested going through the list and commenting on their disagreements, so I will do that.

    1. Using Jehovah instead of Yahweh. The Catholics and Most Protestant religions use the term less than the JWs, but almost always when they do they use the word Jehovah. So this similiarity between the Witnesses and Masons is meaningless.

    2. Do not teach that teach that Jesus was the mediator. This is not true Russell taught that he was the mediator.

    3. Teach that "the church is a mysterious secred body" This is a stretch. I don't see this in Russell's ideas.

    4. Teach that the church is like a pyramid. Quite the contrary, Russell put very little emphasis on organization, the local eclsias had a great deal of autonomy

    5. That they both had another Bible: what was Russell's other Bible. I don't see this at all.

    6. "Christian scholars don't understand the Bible" This is a truism of all scholars of many other Christian religions when they veiw the scholars of other denominations. This is not unique to Russell or the Masons.

    7. Both will lie under oath: So will members of almost any organization if their organization or its members are threatened. Again, this is not unique.

    8. Many ranks in the organization. This was not true in Russell's day. It was a fairly small, warm group, with a flat organizational structure.

    9. Both have secret oaths: Russell didn't have secret oaths.

    10. Give high ranking to Abraham and Melchizideck: so did the apostle Paul.

    11. "fail to understand the atonement": Not true, Russell fully understood it.

    11. Catholics as Babylon the Great: Russell taught that all churches made up Babylon the Great not just the Catholics. However, he was much more tolerant than later Witness leaders. He believed you could be in any church and still be in the true church, Christ's church".

    As Gray Wolf wrote, I don't think that the autor knew much about JWs, especially Russell.

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    larc,

    You took alot of time to formulate that list of comments, many of which I agree with. But you and Gray Wolf have really missed my point.

    Iam going to break my rules, and agrue this for the sake of Ginny, Grey Wolf, and yourself.

    No where in this entire thread, have I suggested, or even implied that Charles Taze, was in fact, a Mason. Show me where I have done so.

    An indisputable fact of the matter is that CTR et al: Golden Age, Zion's Watchtower, all contained overt references to images, pyramids, insignia, all promoted by the Mason's before Charles Taze had his first little Bible study group meeting. Now maybe he just dreamed up all that stuff (he did have a pretty far fetched imagination) or a reasoning person, might well conclude, he borrowed or let other beliefs, organizations, associations, brotherhoods influence his thinking. Who can really say. No one can with a certainty. But if it looks like a horse...blah blah.

    I happen to be an Elk, and a Moose. I joined these orgs not because I believed all or little of what they espouse. Simply because I was invited by associates to join, agreed with some of the tenants, and for association and recreation. Just like you and Englishman attend your local pubs. The Mason's are a very exclusive club, not one you can just sign up for, as I understand. The fact that Russel had so warmly sided with this group, even addressing a group of them, has some significance.

    It is this fact his apparent association, membership, or just plain effinity for some of their beliefs...that is cause enough, to consider just one more item, that points to the fact, that CTR was not inspired of God, but simply a man, who compiled alot of information, from Miller, contemporary peer's, mason's, his neighborhood barkeep perhaps, who cares...the guy was a self promoter, with a pretty grandiose opinion of his Bible understanding. He produced and narrated a color slide show, promoting it all over. He was a real attention getter, that's why he accomplished very well the groundwork or framework of the international hoax WTBS.

    Why is it so important to shoot the messenger, as Ozzie said? Maybe FS is a drunk, druggy, or completely insane, Ozzie thought his comparison of the Mason's and JW's was credible enough to consider, so did I. Nothing has changed, but if someone had not stood up to the squelching 'hey this old stuff, hey Sf is not credible, hey his thoughts are worthless, hey your dumb for thinking...Ozzie and the rest of us would have just had to pack up our ideas, and just roll over uttering 'oh sorry for even uttering a divergent view, we should of known, how utterly ridiculous our thoughts were, next time we will check, with the thought police, before ever posting a god damn thing'.

    Danny

    My main point to all this was simply...credibility is in the eye of the beholder. What anyone deems as credible is not subject to, or deserving of, belittling.

    You set a good example of how to go about showing your reason's for not agreeing. Your list was a far better way to say so, than a quick dismissive wave of the hand....like other poster's did.

    Danny

  • larc
    larc

    Danny,

    Since you addressed your comments to several people, it is impossible to tell which ones apply to my comments. I did not comment on your conclusions nor did I attack the messenger. I attacked the messenger's credility. Of his points nearly half are questionable. I went back and found a few more. I will maintian my numbering system and start from my last post.

    16. Jesus seen "merely as a man". Russell saw him as a perfect man, the only begotten son of God, born of a virgin, who existed before all other things were created. That is a lot more than "merely a man."

    17. Bible written in code. All religions that have tryed to interprete Daniel and Revelation believe that. I have heard it many times.

    18. Bible is a temple: What does this mean anyway and where did Russell say that?

    19. They have "exclusiveness of truth" Again, not unique many religions believed that, especially in Russell's day.

    20. Salvation by works: Again many religions believe this. It is so common that it has been referred to as the "Protestant work ethic" by Sociologists.

    21. Blacks are inferior: in 1900, many white groups believed this, if not the majority of groups.

  • larc
    larc

    Opps,

    I jumped form #11 to #16. My short term memory is going.

  • sf
    sf

    Too me, and maybe only me, NOTHING is evident in this subject and I have come to NO conclusions. I am researching it. Reading everything that comes up as results of certain keywords I put into search engines. In my mindseye, anything that has the WTBTS or Russell slapped all over it NEEDS TO BE SEEN BY EVERYONE WHO OWNS A COMPUTER. I purposely do not give my views or thoughts on this. Why? They simply aren't conclusive at THIS time.

    Today I spent three hours all together reading a site that had extensive historical political and religious dates with names and occasions. "The Illuminati" (not like any other site I'VE seen on the subject): < http://www.powerup.com.au/~smack/page2+.htm ) It sort of reminded me of "PB's List"(lol). It enlightened me and I learned more on that webpage about how this world is, was and will be run than any book I've ever read.

    THIS WORLD IS ONE HUGE SPIDERWEB OF LIES. NOTHING IS EVIDENT!

    By the way, doesn't illumination have the word...ILLUMINATE in "it"? What happens when something is illuminated? hmmmmmmmmm

    Someone wrote earlier "keep em coming". I intend to.
    sKally (wturls on yahoo)

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    larc,

    Not really knowing for sure what the MASON'S believe, I can't comment on any of your assertions. And that is all they are, assertions, we have no way of verifying what the Mason's stand is. Maybe SF knew something of THIER stands? Could it be a possibility? Maybe?

    Jeez man, you said you had a friend who was 32nd degree, maybe he is a credible source for some answers. I certainly don't have any.

    Danny

  • larc
    larc

    Danny,

    I know almost nothing about the Masons myself. That is why I restricted myself to comments about Russell.

    A Mason did tell me that most of the founding fathers of the US were Masons and all the pallbearers at George Washington's funeral were Masons. Hence, they can't be all bad.

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    larc,

    Hell I might just go try and join-up, probably make me wait until I attained 69th degree, before providing any answer's....wonder how long it takes, to make each step up the ladder?

    db

  • larc
    larc

    To clarify a point in may last post.

    The summary points in the first post of this thread stated that the Masons were identical to Russell's beliefs and praictices in many areas. What I demonstrated was that they were not the same in many of the areas listed. I showed that Russel did not believe or practice many of the things stated my the author. In some areas where Russell and the Masons were the same, they shared this sameness with many, many other groups. Thus, the majority of the assertions by the author, as stated in the first post of this thread, are invalid.

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Hi Scally,

    That is my feeling as well. Every bit of information you can add to background, known facts, will help you see more clearly, if there is crediblity or none.

    It is when we make sweeping judgements (like our former wt selves) that we fall back to our old 'self deluded', head in the sand.

    Danny

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